• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Open Parallel/ Dynamic Parallel

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
This thread is mostly for PSIA instructors, since well those are the terms we use. If you are a non coach or non PSIA feel free to join. I start this thread because asking several different examiners/L3s/former ed staff I got many different answers to this question.

At what point does open parallel become Dynamic Parallel? Simply saying faster, steeper quicker is not good enough. Basically what I am looking for define open parallel and dynamic parallel in such a way that you could look at someone and say with out an hesitation that they are one or the other including in the large grey area that exists.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,303
I've always looked at that line as a turn where the COM is inside the turn relative to the inside ski.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
Can we get some video to go along with this?
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
If we are balanced on our outside ski would it not be as soon as the COM is fully inside the balance point?
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
Uke could you go up hill using open parallel?
 

Uke

Who am I now
Skier
Joined
Jan 9, 2016
Posts
249
Location
ut
Yes, your momentum will take you up hill but that is not what I ment.

In lower level manuvers and at lower speeds we are oriented to gravity, we stand on the skis. At higher skill levels, edge angles, speeds we orient to the ground reaction forces generated by the skis, we stand against the edges. It would be fairly easy to tell the difference between the two and the line between them would be fairly sharp.
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
I always thought it changed when you transitioned from instructor to coach!. :)

Now I realize this may seem provocative to the PSIA folk and is an over generalization - and is genuinely not meant as trolling! - but I dont see many instructors exhibiting what I would categorize as "dynamic" .

I would support Epic's definition though and I think that is a good start
I've always looked at that line as a turn where the COM is inside the turn relative to the inside ski.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
Good question.

I've always thought "Open Parallel" was the same as "Basic Parallel."
"Open Parallel" is the older term as I understand it. It means the feet are not very close together as they would be in a Stein-Eriksen-type turn.

Basic Parallel turns are gentle skidded turns which are done with all the right moves but at slow speed and on green-blue groomers. These are the turns that intermediates are supposed to be making once they have progressed beyond the wedge and wedge christie. Open, or Basic Parallel turns are an idealization; hardly anyone makes them. Most intermediates making parallel turns have problems embedded in their turn mechanics. But Basic Parallel turns are something an instructor needs to demonstrate while trying to cure them of those problems. Instructors need to complete those turns for speed control, and also allow the skis to be flat enough that they "spread the peanut butter." Instructors need to be traveling down the hill slowly enough as they do these turns so they don't pull ahead of their students who are trying to do the same turns.

Dynamic parallel is a more athletic parallel turn that involves exactly the same turn mechanics as the Basic, or Open Parallel turn, but the DIRT is different. It's fast, it involves some serious flexing and extending, requires excellent pole plants, and is done at speed on steepish groomers. It's a short-mediumish-radius skidded turn where the skis are bending like crazy. Some may prefer to call it a scarved turn. The skidding distinguishes this type of turn from an arc-to-arc carved turn with edges locked on the snow. Dynamic Parallel turns do not leave pencil thin tracks.
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
I always thought it changed when you transitioned from instructor to coach!. :)

Now I realize this may seem provocative to the PSIA folk and is an over generalization - and is genuinely not meant as trolling! - but I dont see many instructors exhibiting what I would categorize as "dynamic" .

I would support Epic's definition though and I think that is a good start

so when does a turn become dynamic to you?
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
so when does a turn become dynamic to you?

Fair point Josh.

For me as a coach, it is when the athlete starts looking for speed and time reductions as opposed to simply focusing on form and skiing the course, rather than racing. In a more general sense it is when the skier is taking advantage of gravity, applying pressure above the fall line and making a quick switch to the new ski rather than riding the edge and completing the bottom half of the turn. It should also include an element of pushing the speed/control envelope towards the limits rather than being completely comfortable and clean. But, that is my race bias coming through.
:crash:
 

Living Proof

We All Have The Truth
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
943
Location
Avalon - On The Way to Cape May
Can a everyday skier play in this question? Don't know how ski pro's describe the difference between open Parallel and Dynamic skiing, but, just riding chairs and looking at accomplished skiers, I think @Bob Barnes does a pretty good job of describing dynamic skiing in his post, taken from the Infinity Move thread. The concept of flowing and gliding, vs, braking resonates in my brain as a distinction. It is a journey that I will never finish, but, it sure is a worthy goal. I also think that what @ScotsSkier describes above fits in pretty well with the below.


"Now, for the masses: how does one accomplish this?" Ah--that is the question, isn't it, BBinder? It's a life-long pursuit for many of us. Helping people discover and increase their skill at these turns is the art and science of great instructors everywhere.

All I'll say for now is that the first key is have the image of the Infinity Move in your mind from the start. Know that this is the flowing, gliding, continuous motion outcome we're striving for. Make sure that intent matches the technique. This is arguably the biggest missing link for most recreational skiers, at all skill levels, who think of their skis primarily as brakes and their turns primarily as a way to slow down, to "stop going this way," rather than to "go that way." The Infinity Move maximizes gliding, not braking--it is the embodiment of what the great French technician and author Georges Joubert called "glissement," which translates roughly as the desire to glide, to "ride a fast ski," to ski whatever line you choose to ski as fast as you can, while choosing that line deliberately to eliminate the need to control speed with your technique. The Infinity Move is all about offensive, not defensive, technique, managing speed through tactics rather than technique, keeping the skis going the direction they're pointing as much as possible, using the edges to hold the line, rather than to scrape off speed. It's what I call the Go! Factor, and it's missing in 90% of recreational skiers, at any level of skill. For most skiers, this type of skiing requires a paradigm shift at the most basic level of how they think about turning from the start.

Intent Dictates Technique. Even when they "think" they want to develop the technique of great skiers, few skiers, outside of racers, operate with the offensive intent that is the pre-requisite of great technique. As you know, I've written a lot about "skiing the slow line fast" in the past. Note that it is not about "skiing fast"--it is about the desire to ski fast-ER, all the time, to gain speed when you release the edges and dive down the hill, to literally ski whatever line you choose to ski as fast as you possibly can. But "fast" and "slow" are states of mind, and the actual speeds involved will vary from skier to skier, and from turn to turn. The only way to "want to ski faster" all the time, of course, is to ski "too slowly" all the time. Whether it's you or me or a beginning skier going 2 mph or Lindsey Vonn going 90, the mindset (intent) must remain "how can I glide faster on this line?" The moment that changes, the technique of The Infinity Move goes out the window.

I do not turn to control speed. I turn to eliminate the need to control speed.

Once the mindset, the intent, the basic paradigm of turning to control direction rather than speed, are ingrained, there are many ways to help skiers develop the techniques of great skiing. Progressions, terrain choice, tactics, focuses, teaching styles, and so on are the tools of the trade, and great instructors master these tools to great effect. But so many lessons fail, simply because the instructor tries to teach offensive techniques to defensive skiers....

Best regards,
Bob
 

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
Team Gathermeister
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,345
Location
New England
My understanding of the "infinity move" is that that particular move (i.e., the crossing of the paths of the COM and the skis themselves) is a component of all turns (*) from wedge turns up to dynamic parallel.

(*) "turns" as defined by Bob; i.e., a mechanism used to control direction instead of speed.

So while @Living Proof raises a good point, I don't think that's the differentiating factor. Although seeing skiers who utilize the Infinity Move is so rare that I imagine most of them are skiing fairly dynamically. Dynamic wedge turns? @ScotsSkier 's definition struck me as being another take on Bob's "go" factor -- i.e., turning is about getting "somewhere else" as fast as you possibly can. In a racer's case, that "somewhere else" is the next gate.

While I'm tempted to go with the "I know it when I see it" definition, I feel that the "test" for dynamic vs. open parallel skiing is in the movement of the COM. i.e., is the skier actively and always moving the COM into the next turn? To @epic 's point, a skier who is actively driving their COM throughout a turn will probably get their COM pretty far inside the turn, so being "inside the inside ski" is probably a good litmus test, but I don't think that's a guarantee. i.e., you can huck yourself over at transition pretty far and park-and-ride and I don't think anybody would call that "dynamic parallel".

Or is there a pause in the skier actively driving their skis; i.e., does the skier become a passive passenger at some point during their turns? I'm no expert at movement analysis, but even to a rookie's eyes like mine, it's usually pretty obvious when somebody goes from "driving" to "riding".
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
There are limited ways of doing the basic/open parallel turn. It has to be slow, less physically demanding, and it needs to display a controlled amount of skidding.
There are lots of different ways to do dynamic parallel turns. Whatever variation the skier chooses depends on the tactics/intent of the moment.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,863
I'm just musing here, but how about dynamicism beginning with actively getting the feet significantly outside the path of the COM.
 

ToddW

Outa Here ... No Longer Active on Pugski
Inactive
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
49
Location
Northeast
Basically what I am looking for define open parallel and dynamic parallel in such a way that you could look at someone and say with out an hesitation that they are one or the other including in the large grey area that exists. [emphasis added]

Josh, Warren Witherell gave a powerful visual test to distinguish the two decades ago. I don't know what your PSIA-E examiners would answer, and I've heard many unresolved discussions about this dividing line among instructors in the locker room, but IMO Witherell nailed it. A skier's skiing either looks like a goff cart in motion or it doesn't. (disclosure: as you know, I'm not a current PSIA cert.)
 

Skistaff

speed limit
Skier
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Posts
79
This thread is mostly for PSIA instructors, since well those are the terms we use. If you are a non coach or non PSIA feel free to join. I start this thread because asking several different examiners/L3s/former ed staff I got many different answers to this question.

At what point does open parallel become Dynamic Parallel? Simply saying faster, steeper quicker is not good enough. Basically what I am looking for define open parallel and dynamic parallel in such a way that you could look at someone and say with out an hesitation that they are one or the other including in the large grey area that exists.
The open parallel becomes dynamic parallel when the skier : -- has tipped and depply flexed his inside leg -- has extended his outside leg and has toched the inside boot with his outside knee -- has his inside arm lifted to the level of his chest which indicates a strong lower and upped body separation --- actively maintans and increases this separation as the turn progresses -- has balanced his weight over to his outside ski ....
 

meput

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
37
Location
Downeast
This thread is mostly for PSIA instructors, since well those are the terms we use. If you are a non coach or non PSIA feel free to join. I start this thread because asking several different examiners/L3s/former ed staff I got many different answers to this question.

At what point does open parallel become Dynamic Parallel? Simply saying faster, steeper quicker is not good enough. Basically what I am looking for define open parallel and dynamic parallel in such a way that you could look at someone and say with out an hesitation that they are one or the other including in the large grey area that exists.

This looks like fun, may I play? Disclaimer: What is PSIA?

It seems like everyone is making this more complex than it needs to be. When the forces generated by the speed, body position and edging angles cause the outside ski to bend, the turn is a dynamic parallel. If the outside ski is not bent but flat and sliding/smearing, it is an open parallel.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
Fair point Josh.

For me as a coach, it is when the athlete starts looking for speed and time reductions as opposed to simply focusing on form and skiing the course, rather than racing. In a more general sense it is when the skier is taking advantage of gravity, applying pressure above the fall line and making a quick switch to the new ski rather than riding the edge and completing the bottom half of the turn. It should also include an element of pushing the speed/control envelope towards the limits rather than being completely comfortable and clean. But, that is my race bias coming through.
:crash:

Race bias or not, that description resonates with me.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
Two posts have been deleted from this thread because
  • One was a shot at instructors
  • One was a quote of the shot.

We pride ourselves on the intelligent conversation and will continue to do so. Taking shots does not set the tone which will encourage intelligent discussion
 

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Dwight
    Practitioner of skiing, solid and liquid
Top