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Open Letter on Diversity in Our Sport

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Tricia

Tricia

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Actually traffic always declines in the summer. I think the main reason people are posting so MUCH is the COVID threads and boredom. Although truth be told, I'm on less than normal this summer because there's only so much COVID I can take.

The diversity topic interests me, but I really wish there were some way to restrict the postings to only non-whites so we could really learn instead of a lot of white people speculating. The fact that there is less participation lately in the National Brotherhood of Skiers was a surprise to me (not that I've been following the topic, but I think for some it's important to have more support). I'm certainly interested in the reasons for the dropoff and for general lack of participation. And I've heard plenty of theories already from white folks and have my own, of course. But I would like to hear from non white people themselves, not some filtered version of things. Especially, I'd like to hear why young, fit, active types don't ski. Thinking back, none of my black friends were big on sports, they were into books, so they aren't representative of folks you'd expect to see anyway. There was one guy in grad school I bicycled with, and I think we talked about skiing at the time, and he made the standard crack about cold weather, but I don't know if that was a way of not having a serious discussion or the real reason.
I sincerely thought about that, but to learn, we need to be a part of the discussion. I really hope that more people of different races will post, black, Asian, Indian....
I know we have diverse families on this site who's kids are in the race program. @textrovert is just one that comes to mind.


We're all learning.
 
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The motives are great, but restricting something to people not of a particular race is racist.

That's an interesting thing about racism. Many people are racist and don't even know that they are; it's not deliberate; it's culture. People I've encountered (in an environment with few minority individuals) who do not consider themselves racist will often use language that is hurtful to minorities out of naivety, not even realizing what they are doing. However, you don't want to hear from me, so I'll say no more.
We won't be closing the thread to anyone as long as the discussion is respectful.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
RE: Many peole are racist and don't even know it.
I'm guilty as charged.
Ignorance is bliss? Bliss for who?
I grew up with very minimal contact with people who didn't look like me, average american white middle class.
Lots of jokes, and terminology that were part of every day life without knowing the origin of the terminology.
It really wasn't until I moved to Tahoe and away from the language I was accustomed to that I realized others didn't say those things and when I did, someone would gently point out the origin of my language.

Even terminology that we find in the Urban dictionary that is common in today's language is insensitive to some without an intent of hurt from the person using it.

Example from the Open Letter:
How do you think I felt when I purchased a hot chocolate and coffee at a ski resort during a FIS race and looked at my receipt and it said “Ghetto Mocha”.
I would hope that the person who used the term Ghetto Mocha wasn't being intentionally insensitive, but here it is, and it stung in the hands of Chuck.
 
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ForeverSki

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That's an interesting thing about racism. Many people are racist and don't even know that they are; it's not deliberate; it's culture. People I've encountered (in an environment with few minority individuals) who do not consider themselves racist will often use language that is hurtful to minorities out of naivety, not even realizing what they are doing. However, you don't want to hear from me, so I'll say no more.
In those instances, if you spoke out, were they open to learning? In my experience, when I point out something is offensive, some people become defensive, then aggressive.
 

scott43

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The diversity topic interests me, but I really wish there were some way to restrict the postings to only non-whites so we could really learn instead of a lot of white people speculating.
Yeah I have thoughts and I'm keeping them to myself because I may be part of the problem..so I want to listen and hear and try to do a better job. I don't THINK I'm part of the problem...?? But I need to listen and ensure I'm not.
 

fatbob

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We (white people of means) are all part of the problem no matter how non-racist we might consider ourselves to be. That's in part due to heuristics and our personal experiences in life. Best we can do is try to be part of the solution by listening and not overprinting our own take on how things should be on others.

I, for instance, simply cannot imagine what it feels like to have to think that every interaction with a cop or security guard etc has the potential to end up with being in jail or worse. I'm therefore in no position say how that person should address that problem.

Re the Ghetto Mocha example - yeah my first reaction was that it wasn't targeted at Charles, it was likely something someone had coded in the system for self mix coffee/chocolate in a nod to slang usage. But it really doesn't matter if the intent was not there to be hurtful, there was a better word that could be less hurtful. So my learning is that I should stop using "Ghetto" as a self-deprecating prefix to something I've fixed up with Duck Tape. Because it's not about me...
 
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Jim Kenney

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It's a small thing, but maybe we could reach out to Vernette's ski club? This is the second time I've witnessed her very nicely reaching out to others in a ski area setting for socializing and fun, May 2019, A-Basin:
1592414331297.png

Next winter might be tricky because of unknown Covid factors. But what I was thinking is to provide her/them with a list of dates of 2021 Gatherings to see if: 1) They are interested in participating, 2) or to find out if the two groups happen to have an overlapping event like we did in May 2019 at Arapahoe Basin. If we'd known ahead of time about their presence at A-Basin we could have had a little more organized interaction.

My inspiration is this news story out of Rochester, NY, Black or White, Relax and Have a Beer: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brad-paisely-have-a-beer-friends-rochester-new-york/
Now if we could just get a celebrity to donate to the event a store's worth of Bud Lite then @Gary Stolt would be in heaven.
 
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karlo

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As a coach, I've never had a problem with one of my athletes; I have had issues with parents, coaches in other programs, officials, and volunteers. Those are just to my face that I (an admittedly oblivious person in general) noticed.
Racism, active or passive, is definitely a learned thing In Chinese, the common term for whites is “ghost man”. Kinda like n***. In China, there is automatic suspicion built right into the vocabulary. The first thought seeing a white person is, that’s a white person. Our first thought is that’s a black person. That’s learned. Learned from how we talk about those of another race in our homes and amongst friends, by our isolation and access (non-access) to a diverse environment.
Is there a systemic problem specific to ski racing? I'm not qualified to say, but my intuition is that this is reflective of (American) society at large rather than something skiing-specific.
Yes, for sure. But, those who have bias can also consciously work to root out anything that is systemic. Kinda like the efforts for equal purses in racing for men and women, but far deeper, like ski scholarships. Don’t know. But any bias there? Not seeking an answer. Just saying.

I would like to hear from non white people themselves, not some filtered version of things.
Hey, I've just encountered racist discrimination on a ski site! :geek:
Thankfully it's only wishful thinking and not active discrimination that I can see. Admittedly, I cannot see the deleted posts.
Many people are racist and don't even know it.
I suggest going to Instagram and searching “blackat(your alma mater)”. I learned of it and looked last night. It’s shocking. Again, I’m Asian. Yes, in school, I was occasionally subject to racist taunts or jokes. Sometimes, others would speak up and object. But, I never imagined that it went as far as teachers/professors/admin. Just put ourselves in any poster’s shoes and imagine how you would feel, to be singled out in class, to get less attention from a school nurse..., some examples from my alma mater.

My first thought when I see a black personal is for sure, that’s a black person. I’m not thinking what makes that person special. Last year, I had a never-ever class with one black student. I couldn’t remember his name, though I could everyone else’s. Turned out he was the slowest learner; had the greatest apprehension. I focused on keeping the learning momentum of the others up. I probably would have done the same even if he were not black and I did give him personal attention towards the end, as I set the others off to practice. I also would have done that for anyone else. But, there was an undertone in my thinking that said “this is not going to work out well; he’ll eventually give up; I should make an extra effort because he’s black”. And, I’m a minority myself! Later that day, I saw him with his (white) friends making their way to the magic carpet. He didn’t give up. I was gratified.
 

Rudi Riet

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I live in a city where race relations and gentrification are real, everyday issues - even more so over the past few weeks as one of the epicenters of the #BLM protests. DC isn't ski country, where by and large the populations are white and fairly self-selected. I'm a native of one of the least diverse states in the union (though it's become far more diverse since I left it 27 years ago). So my perspective on the issue is definitely colored by this (no pun intended).

As you can tell by my userpic, I'm white. I'm also the Head Coach of an alpine racing program that has its share of nonwhite athletes and families, from Black to Asian, Indian to Middle Eastern and North African, and everything in between. I'd say at least 30 percent of my program's athletes would identify as nonwhite as a conservative estimate.

I always approach coaching as trying to teach and connect with a fellow human, person to person, regardless of race, color, sex, or sexual identification. But I have seen a lot of instances of systemic cultural racism and sexism within the alpine racing community, as an athlete, coach, and official. It's extremely frustrating to go to Team Captains' Meetings and have it full of white men like me. USSS has made a conscious effort to bridge the sexism gap over the last few years through "strongly encouraging" jury members and course setters to be women, but it's just a suggestion and often falls on the deaf ears of inertia.

A few seasons back I had the privilege of coaching two Black ski racers who were incredibly dedicated to the sport, and whose family was all-in with supporting their kids and my coaching staff. The athletes worked hard - some of the strongest, most focused kids I've ever coached - and one of them was ascending through the ranks of USSS' Eastern division (as much as one can in Pennsylvania, was borderline academy material), and her white teammates welcomed her with open arms. And their family was among the upper earners of families on the team: they were successful through hard work and passed along that work ethic to their kids.

But there were some families that still had, shall we say, "southern leanings." You'd see the Confederate battle flag stickers on their cars and keychains. There would be side-eyed glances at team meetings. And at races, the chatter was quiet yet audible.

These athletes didn't let this deter their commitment to the sport, and their parents were honestly some of the best I've seen come through our program. They were leaders, they inspired other families to lead as well. And the families who disapproved? Most are no longer with my program. And the two athletes now attend Ivy League schools where they are both high academic achievers and leaders.

I coached another athlete of Indian descent who became a great FIS racer, even traveling solo to races outside of PA to get starts (our program doesn't have the staffing or budget to dedicate a coach for a single racer's pursuits). For her, she had to battle cultural obstacles from within her family: one parent wanted her to continue pursuing her ski racing in college (and to possibly race for India in the 2018 Winter Olympics), the other felt ski racing was a fad and that academic pursuits should be the only focus. Sad to say, this athlete with a good FIS point profile went the academic route (though she's excelled in college and still finds time to ski, if not run the gates). I often got the vibe that the academic-minded parent saw ski racing as a culture that wasn't suitable for their child. And while I never heard any racist rumblings, I wouldn't be surprised if they did exist.

One of my overarching goals as a coach is to help my athletes achieve to their highest level. This means I have to be an ally for all of them, and especially for those who aren't part of the predominant alpine racing culture. I have to fight doubly hard to get them the same seat at the table. It's not easy when you're easily labeled as part of the problem, which as a white, middle-aged male I certainly am at first glance.

That there is a lack of diversity within alpine ski competition is an elephant in the corner of the room that will not be fixed immediately. There are many players deep within the USSS who, knowingly or not, perpetuate this culture. The barriers to entry into the sport are both financial and cultural, and addressing both issues will take a healthy dose of humility, listening, understanding, and reform - including changing some of the folks in charge, like it or not.
 

Ken_R

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Its only June and I have already ran out of popcorn for the year. :popcorn::huh::roflmao:
 

cantunamunch

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Yes, there is an economic barrier, but please reread this paragraph and tell me it is economic...

The problem is cultural but we only have economic weapons.

We are now in the second or third full generation to grow up with the consequences of Milliken v. Bradley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliken_v._Bradley OF COURSE the problem is getting worse, as segregation gains momentum.

Here is the local problem, to tie into what @Rudi Riet was saying.

https://kappanonline.org/integratio...n-school-districts-montgomery-county-rotberg/

If we're even remotely going to have a chance to overturn Milliken v. Bradley and re-integrate school systems past community boundaries, we need all the voices we can muster. There are countless sacred cows, from luxury communities to private schools, that need to be gored.
 
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Tricia

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It's a small thing, but maybe we could reach out to Vernette's ski club? This is the second time I've witnessed her very nicely reaching out to others in a ski area setting for socializing and fun, May 2019, A-Basin:
View attachment 104615
Next winter might be tricky because of unknown Covid factors. But what I was thinking is to provide her/them with a list of dates of 2021 Gatherings to see if: 1) They are interested in participating, 2) or to find out if the two groups happen to have an overlapping event like we did in May 2019 at Arapahoe Basin. If we'd known ahead of time about their presence at A-Basin we could have had a little more organized interaction.

My inspiration is this news story out of Rochester, NY, Black or White, Relax and Have a Beer: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brad-paisely-have-a-beer-friends-rochester-new-york/
Now if we could just get a celebrity to donate to the event a store's worth of Bud Lite then @Gary Stolt would be in heaven.
That was a crew from the National Brotherhood of Skiers.
We actually did reach out to her about that May at A-Basin weekend. It wasn't accidental that they had a beach spot next to ours ;)
 

Jim Kenney

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That was a crew from the National Brotherhood of Skiers.
We actually did reach out to her about that May at A-Basin weekend. It wasn't accidental that they had a beach spot next to ours ;)
Wow. That's awesome. You're way ahead of me.:golfclap:
 

David Chaus

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We won't be closing the thread to anyone as long as the discussion is respectful.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
RE: Many peole are racist and don't even know it.
I'm guilty as charged.
Ignorance is bliss? Bliss for who?
I grew up with very minimal contact with people who didn't look like me, average american white middle class.
Lots of jokes, and terminology that were part of every day life without knowing the origin of the terminology.
It really wasn't until I moved to Tahoe and away from the language I was accustomed to that I realized others didn't say those things and when I did, someone would gently point out the origin of my language.

Even terminology that we find in the Urban dictionary that is common in today's language is insensitive to some without an intent of hurt from the person using it.

Example from the Open Letter:

I would hope that the person who used the term Ghetto Mocha wasn't being intentionally insensitive, but here it is, and it stung in the hands of Chuck.
Interesting that a term like Ghetto at one time referred to Jewish enclaves, and is now in this country associated with another group. It is nonetheless usually used as a term of denigration, so it seems pretty questionable to use it so casually.
 
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Tricia

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Wow. That's awesome. You're way ahead of me.:golfclap:
We had fun with that crew. They were stoked that we had a Shotzski that they could join in on.
Note @margaritamarcia with all those tall dudes.
img_0855-jpg.72999

She may or maynot have had tequila dumped down the front of her jacket.
Super fun crew.
 

David Chaus

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Good timing on this article:

 

karlo

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Good timing on this article:

Melanin Base Camp, referenced in that article, caught my eye. “Danielle Wiliams created Melanin Base Camp in 2016 when she realized BIPOC were getting outside and being active, but that it wasn’t being depicted in outdoor media.” So true. When was the last time there was a feature that included a minority in outdoors sports - in Outdoors Magazine, Sports Illustrated. No, women in swimsuits don’t count. :)

Going to the MBC page,https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/,
“Do you ever read about racism in the outdoors and think, ‘well, that can’t be right, nature doesn’t see color’? Or maybe you’ve listened to someone recount their experience of discrimination, while waiting impatiently for a chance to interject and explain how they were wrong, and that didn’t actually happen. If that describes you then you should probably read no further. For everyone else, check out our official Guide to Outdoor Allyship.”
Maybe, to the contrary, I should read further...

Looking forward to the next Warren Miller productions, to see what they are doing.
 

raytseng

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Re the Ghetto Mocha example - yeah my first reaction was that it wasn't targeted at Charles, it was likely something someone had coded in the system for self mix coffee/chocolate in a nod to slang usage. But it really doesn't matter if the intent was not there to be hurtful, there was a better word that could be less hurtful. So my learning is that I should stop using "Ghetto" as a self-deprecating prefix to something I've fixed up with Duck Tape. Because it's not about me...

Interesting that a term like Ghetto at one time referred to Jewish enclaves, and is now in this country associated with another group. It is nonetheless usually used as a term of denigration, so it seems pretty questionable to use it so casually.
ah, maybe the term is not so woke or pc, but its in the zeitgeist and they didnt make it up themselves. Term is in urbandictuonary with a fair number of upvotes right up there, maybe not as upvoted as wifebeater but in the same vein.
SNL even did a sketch 5 years ago on this mannerism, with even some character development at the end. If you really want to dissect it, the sketch shows how the common use is more about ignorance than weaponizing privilege or being hurtful (beckys vs karens).
So in the heirarchy of needs, "Have Beckys not say ghetto casually anymore" is pretty far down on the list, maybe nice to have but not the top focus? I personally don't want to wade too far into this thread, but dipping in to share this snl clip since everyone need some humor. Just have people watch this sketch and likely that'll be enough for this issue.
 
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VickiK

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Re the Ghetto Mocha example - yeah my first reaction was that it wasn't targeted at Charles,
Interesting, my gut level, first reaction was that it was. I get this combo hot beverage all the time at lodges and call it a mocha.

First time I heard of helicopters referred to as 'ghetto birds', I had to put it together that they were called that because of the neigherhoods they were flying over. It wasn't all that long ago, maybe 8 years?
 
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markojp

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More later today when time allows... if the thread is still open. :)
 

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