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Philpug

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That said, it's pretty clear from reading between the lines that @BillVT is "somebody." Can we have an introduction? I intentionally did not do this via PM to Bill or anyone else for all the reasons stated above. Thanks in advance!
That's Bill Doble from Dodge ski boots. He races in the Stowe Ski Bum series so I recognized him from his avatar. :D
Note that I have his badge as "Manufacturer".
 

Tim Hodgson

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Phil: I read your comment on the Lange RS 130, that it had a more upright stance which you did not prefer and that you changed to a different boot.

Is there a reasonable way without an under-binding shim (I ski too many skis to do this) to increase the forward lean on the RS 130?

My guess is that your answer is "no" or you wouldn't have changed from the RS 130 to another boot, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would answer that question directly.
 

Philpug

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Phil: I read your comment on the Lange RS 130, that it had a more upright stance which you did not prefer and that you changed to a different boot.

Is there a reasonable way without an under-binding shim (I ski too many skis to do this) to increase the forward lean on the RS 130?

My guess is that your answer is "no" or you wouldn't have changed from the RS 130 to another boot, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would answer that question directly.
Define "reasonable"? As I mentioned in that post, I reversed gas pedalled the shell with a shim between the shell and the replacable sole. By doing that, the heel lug will beed to be routed to get back to DIN specs.
 
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Nobody

Nobody

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just a note - spoilers are mainly meant to take room for small calves - IMHO using the spoilers for forward lean is a bit of a hack, like using wedges inside the cuff, for canting - it may achieve something better, but it would be "faked" and your leg always "pushed" from behind... maybe reasonable as a learning tool.

it's better to solve it by looking at all the cuff-related parameters (stiffness, forward lean and cuff height) and ramp angles (with lifters both inside and outside the boot) and remember that the final results will also vary from binding to binding... each binding has its own delta angles.

there's a lot of shortcuts to fore/aft setup (spoilers, heel lifters etc) but all of these parameters impact your skiing differently.

Not a lot of people can figure your setup up from just measurements, so testing is truly in order: heel lifts, lifter plates etc. Not only that, but as you evolve, your setup will need to change, to keep up with technique...

Mmmh, you might be on to something here...I remember my first pair of Dalbello Scorpion, which I gave up trying to ski with for too much pain and swellingt in the right external lower portion of the calf (just above the ankle) came equipped with two different zeppas
This one has only one, no optional substituion, I might give Dalbello a call thoug, to check if anything is available.
The other thing I was mulling over is...going in the opposite direction to Bill's advice (thanks also to his clips and message) and completely removing the spoiler and see if that change anything.

Nobody, do those new boots have cuff alignment adjusters on both sides of each cuff? If so, and if the side-to-side alignment is already set for your legs, you can see if both adjusters on each boot can be turned to tip the cuffs equally more forward (or back as one's case may be) while maintaining the correct side-to-side alignment for each leg.

Don't be surprised if correctly set cuff alignment is not the same for each leg. Few of us are symmentrical.
Yes, they have canting, internal and external, but as I say above, I might first try to play with the spoiler and zeppa (if another one with different incl angle is available, or play with it adding lifters) and see.

The main thing, I suppose, if that I need to ski these boots more, to try and adapt to them.
Again, a totally different boot than the Tecnica, so might need some time to get used to it (once an optimal setup will be found)
 

François Pugh

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Help me understand how a spoiler changes forward lean. When I buckle up my boots, my shin bone is in contact with the front of the boot (tongue I guess), and my calf is in contact with the back of the boot. When I flex the boot, my shin bone pushes the front of the boot forward and down, providing resistance. The resistance is due to the shell not wanting to move from its normal position, augmented by a power strap and the buckle system that unites the front to the back and forces the back of the boot (also not wanting to move from its normal position). How would adding a spoiler do anything other than squeezing my calf; my shin bone would still start out touching the front of the boot and end up still touching the front of the boot, but displacing it.:huh:
 

Average Joe

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Help me understand how a spoiler changes forward lean. When I buckle up my boots, my shin bone is in contact with the front of the boot (tongue I guess), and my calf is in contact with the back of the boot. When I flex the boot, my shin bone pushes the front of the boot forward and down, providing resistance. The resistance is due to the shell not wanting to move from its normal position, augmented by a power strap and the buckle system that unites the front to the back and forces the back of the boot (also not wanting to move from its normal position). How would adding a spoiler do anything other than squeezing my calf; my shin bone would still start out touching the front of the boot and end up still touching the front of the boot, but displacing it.:huh:
.... by either unwinding the micro adjuster on the top buckles, or lengthening the top bales, or buckling it a few less notches.
The spine angle is fixed. The extent of forward travel is variable.
 

Philpug

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Help me understand how a spoiler changes forward lean. When I buckle up my boots, my shin bone is in contact with the front of the boot (tongue I guess), and my calf is in contact with the back of the boot. When I flex the boot, my shin bone pushes the front of the boot forward and down, providing resistance. The resistance is due to the shell not wanting to move from its normal position, augmented by a power strap and the buckle system that unites the front to the back and forces the back of the boot (also not wanting to move from its normal position). How would adding a spoiler do anything other than squeezing my calf; my shin bone would still start out touching the front of the boot and end up still touching the front of the boot, but displacing it.:huh:
For it's intent, The spoiler takes up volume to keep you centered in the fore and aft position when you have a leg with less volume. since the spine is basically static, and using the skinny leg as an example, w/o the spoiler when you buckle the boot, the front of the boot front of the boot will come back to take up that volume thus making the boot more upright. Adding the spoiler and even an additional spoiler we not allow the front of the boot to close as much obtaining the desired angle.
 

razie

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Apologies in advance for slightly hijacking the thread, but wanted to comment on the subject of spoilers and forward lean. I will assume that all other variables (binding delta, fore and aft, etc.) are optimal.
There are skiers who need forward lean angle adjusted to adapt to calf circumference at the top of their shell, or physical attributes.
I find that the removal or addition of spoilers are a quick an effective way of altering the forward lean of a boot. Changing the forward lean by altering the shell is not a modification easily done.
yeah - they do change things: if your calves are a good fit, then it will just squeeze you against the front of the cuff and reduce range of movement, taking up "room". If your calves are smaller, then they just take the space, for a normal fit. Neither changes your forward lean directly. As you noted, you need to change other things to actually alter the forward lean (relax buckles etc).

All the spoilers do is to reduce the range of motion and push your shin against the front of the cuff, which you can mess with to alter forward lean, but if the skier is not well balanced in the boot, you'll just lean backwards anyways - that's why I see it as at least "a bit of a hack" as far as fore/aft is concerned. It is however a matter of personal preference and feel - I do have spoilers in some boots and not in others... and we should totally experiment with them and likely, if the forward lean is increased (by messing with the front of the cuff) then wedges may be needed, to take up the resulting room behind the leg - probably same thing but I'm looking at it backwards in causality ;)

I don't like squeezing the leg at the top of the boot - not just as a personal preference, but the tibia needs a bit of room to rotate free of the cuff - that's how we use the feet for skiing, that's why I don't like "forcing" the tibia forward - we can change the lean and if the skier is in balance and can stay there forward, it is preferable to pushing the tibia from behind into "forward". At the same time, we don't want excessive room at the top of the boot - so spoilers or shin pads etc
 
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