Of Boot stiffness and such

[Nobody]

Back in March I was skiing with a coach to prepare for an exam and while climbing the lifts in between runs, the subject of stance came up...
See, I was told, by other coaches during the season, that - this year- I was leaning in the backseat a bit too much when flexing the legs...
When I was told the first time, I was skiing in a pair of Dalbello DRS 110 I had just bought and was using for the first time. I thought it was a mere
coincidence and that I should pay more attention to it and it would "magically" (the more I would use the boots) self-correct.
Fast forward a couple of week and here I am, with this coach, preparing for hte exam, and he too was giving me a feedback that I was leaning in the backseat...
Running out of time before theexam, and out of an impulse, I switched back to my old boots (Tecnica 9.8R 100) and..voilà no backseat anymore...other problems resurfaced though...like the boot being too soft and too imprecise (could feel the feet laterally moving inside the packed out liners, making it harder to initiate a turn at the right time)
What I noticed was
-Despite being of the same nominal F.I. , the Dalbello were noticeably stiffer, so I suspect that I need to readjust to the new stiffer boot, but this means time...
-The Dalbello liners are an half laced model, whereas the Tecnicas aren't
-The Dalbello liners have a tongue with a plastic layer moulded on it (much like their Dalbello WC SS liners brethren I use in GS) , the standard Tecnica liners tongue haven't
Discussing all this with hte coach, we came to the conclusion to try a Franken boot, Dalbello DRS liners in the Tecnica shells...that seemed to work , bringing enough stiffness and snugness, allowing me not ot fall in the back seat during a flexion stage (specifically during short turns)

What the coach told me and that made a sort of epiphany though, was that despite the nominal equal F.I. one boot can be stiffer of another because the difference can lay not only in the F.I. but also in the built and assembly of a boot...
Moreover, the F.I. should be understood to be a reference to the stiffness of the plastic material with which a boot is made of, not to the final boot assembly itself.
When I think about it, my Dalbello WC SS (despite SS meaning Super Soft, and nominally equipared to a F.I. of 110) are made of thicker plastic than the Dalbello DRS 110 which I mean to use as an everyday boot from now on, and considerably stiffer both longitudinally and laterally...

What says ye?

 

[Philpug]

There is a stance difference between the Tecnica and Dalbello, The Tecnica has more forward lean than the Dalbello, which is more upright.

 

[Nobody]

There is a stance difference between the Tecnica and Dalbello, The Tecnica has more forward lean that the Dalbello, which is more upright.

Right Phil, I forgot to mention that we discussed this also. Which is also troubling me....I am now fully on Dalbello's both for everyday (on piste - "technical") skiing and racing...for freeriding I still rely on my Tecnica Zero G Guide pro...and am not plaining to replace them anytime soon.
In both instances when skiing in Dalbellos - even the race coach mentioned that I appered a bit backward at times- I appear slightly backward at times, which might result in less points during a technical exam and in time loss in a race situation...
Another point discussed was "you work with what you are given", meaning that I should ski with the Dalbello and work to find a way to correct the tendency to slip backward...(I already had $ubs$antial bootfitting work on the Dalbello SS and replace them would be costly,
whereas the DRS 110 were bought at a cheap price form a (sponsored) friend who did not use them and had them basically lying in the basement for one year...)
How can I correct that and keep the Dalbellos (I am thinking of removing one of the two screws in the back the upper one to begin with, but I am afraid to soften the flex too much in doing so, it wouldn't correct the initial more upright stance, but probably would help me not getting backward while flexing) ?
Or should I get back to Tecnica?
Which would mean to get two new pair of boots, one for everyday skiing and one for GS training/racing.
A very expensive option, but if I'll have to do it, in order to get that bloody U3 (L3) cert, I'll do it.

 

[Philpug]

Right Phil, I forgot to mention that we discussed this also. Which is also troubling me....I am now fully on Dalbello's both for everyday (on piste - "technical") skiing and racing...for freeriding I still rely on my Tecnica Zero G Guide pro...and am not plaining to replace them anytime soon.
In both instances when skiing in Dalbellos - even the race coach mentioned that I appered a bit backward at times- I appear slightly backward at times, which might result in less points during a technical exam and in time loss in a race situation...
Another point discussed was "you work with what you are given", meaning that I should ski with the Dalbello and work to find a way to correct the tendency to slip backward...(I already had $ubs$antial bootfitting work on the Dalbello SS and replace them would be costly,
whereas the DRS 110 were bought at a cheap price form a (sponsored) friend who did not use them and had them basically lying in the basement for one year...)
How can I correct that and keep the Dalbellos (I am thinking of removing one of the two screws in the back the upper one to begin with, but I am afraid to soften the flex too much in doing so, it wouldn't correct the initial more upright stance, but probably would help me not getting backward while flexing) ?
Or should I get back to Tecnica?
Which would mean to get two new pair of boots, one for everyday skiing and one for GS training/racing.
A very expensive option, but if I'll have to do it, in order to get that bloody U3 (L3) cert, I'll do it.

Personally, I prefer the more aggressive stance like the Tecnica. The past two boots I have been in were the Lange RS and now the K2 Recon 140, both are more upright. I hated the stance out of the box an felt I was in the back seat. My solution was to reverse gas pedal the Lange by putting a shim between the shell and the sole changing the delta externally (along with the ramp, internally). With the biggest spoiler I could find, this is aslo needed to accommodate my skinny leg. With the K2, it has a moldable shell so I heated it to get to the stance I wanted. Money in both cases.

In your case, i would start with what I did with the Lange. Just to see if it works, you should be able to click into the binding. if you are uncomfortable with this, you can put a shim under the heel of your binding which will also change the delta.

 

[Nobody]

Thanks for the suggestion! I have plenty of time to look into it an experiment. At least "dry"...and so then be ready for next time I will go to ski

 

[BillVT]

Read Philpug's first comment. The Dalbello needs to have the forward lean increased for you to have the proper stance. Try a spoiler.

 

[Rod9301]

Hard to say really, it depends on body proportions.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Welcome BillVT, I look forward to your contributions.

 

[Nobody]

Read Philpug's first comment. The Dalbello needs to have the forward lean increased for you to have the proper stance. Try a spoiler.

Spoiler already present.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That forward lean/ramp/delta can really affect how stiff your boot feels.

 

[BillVT]

Spoiler already present.

What is the circumference of your calf measured measured 30 cm above the floor? If it is less than 35 cm you likely will need a thicker spoiler (or even 2) to achieve correct forward lean. If you PM me I can send you a tutorial on checking forward lean.

 

[Nobody]

What is the circumference of your calf measured measured 30 cm above the floor? If it is less than 35 cm you likely will need a thicker spoiler (or even 2) to achieve correct forward lean. If you PM me I can send you a tutorial on checking forward lean.

Hi, thanks for the input and the offer. If I have done the measurement correctly, the calf circumference there is 37 cm for the right leg and 36 for the left.
I will pm you, thanks!

 

[Wilhelmson]

What is the circumference of your calf measured measured 30 cm above the floor? If it is less than 35 cm you likely will need a thicker spoiler (or even 2) to achieve correct forward lean. If you PM me I can send you a tutorial on checking forward lean.

til
That's interesting. I have similar problems with my new boots and am at 27 cm circumference at 30 cm. My calves don't get to 36 cm until 38 cm.

I'm using the stock spoiler and the bootfitter suggested I take out my diy heel lifts. Before he ground the top of the boot I got some frostbite because they were so tight, so I think he wanted to fix one thing at a time.

 

[razie]

just a note - spoilers are mainly meant to take room for small calves - IMHO using the spoilers for forward lean is a bit of a hack, like using wedges inside the cuff, for canting - it may achieve something better, but it would be "faked" and your leg always "pushed" from behind... maybe reasonable as a learning tool.

it's better to solve it by looking at all the cuff-related parameters (stiffness, forward lean and cuff height) and ramp angles (with lifters both inside and outside the boot) and remember that the final results will also vary from binding to binding... each binding has its own delta angles.

there's a lot of shortcuts to fore/aft setup (spoilers, heel lifters etc) but all of these parameters impact your skiing differently.

Not a lot of people can figure your setup up from just measurements, so testing is truly in order: heel lifts, lifter plates etc. Not only that, but as you evolve, your setup will need to change, to keep up with technique...

 

[Henry]

Nobody, do those new boots have cuff alignment adjusters on both sides of each cuff? If so, and if the side-to-side alignment is already set for your legs, you can see if both adjusters on each boot can be turned to tip the cuffs equally more forward (or back as one's case may be) while maintaining the correct side-to-side alignment for each leg.

Don't be surprised if correctly set cuff alignment is not the same for each leg. Few of us are symmentrical.

 

[Tony S]

Phil and Tricia were pretty strong on people using some facsimile of their real-world names as screen names, when they started this thing. The reason was transparency and accountability, I imagine. Personally I'm not big on in-crowds that have special knowledge of what's really going on.

That said, it's pretty clear from reading between the lines that @BillVT is "somebody." Can we have an introduction? I intentionally did not do this via PM to Bill or anyone else for all the reasons stated above. Thanks in advance!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That's Bill Doble from Dodge ski boots. He races in the Stowe Ski Bum series so I recognized him from his avatar.

 

[KingGrump]

Wow.
Welcome Bill.

 

[Tony S]

That's Bill Doble from Dodge ski boots. He races in the Stowe Ski Bum series so I recognized him from his avatar.

Very cool. Welcome, Bill!

 

[Average Joe]

just a note - spoilers are mainly meant to take room for small calves - IMHO using the spoilers for forward lean is a bit of a hack, like using wedges inside the cuff, for canting - it may achieve something better, but it would be "faked" and your leg always "pushed" from behind... maybe reasonable as a learning tool.

it's better to solve it by looking at all the cuff-related parameters (stiffness, forward lean and cuff height) and ramp angles (with lifters both inside and outside the boot) and remember that the final results will also vary from binding to binding... each binding has its own delta angles.

there's a lot of shortcuts to fore/aft setup (spoilers, heel lifters etc) but all of these parameters impact your skiing differently.

Not a lot of people can figure your setup up from just measurements, so testing is truly in order: heel lifts, lifter plates etc. Not only that, but as you evolve, your setup will need to change, to keep up with technique...

Apologies in advance for slightly hijacking the thread, but wanted to comment on the subject of spoilers and forward lean. I will assume that all other variables (binding delta, fore and aft, etc.) are optimal.
There are skiers who need forward lean angle adjusted to adapt to calf circumference at the top of their shell, or physical attributes.
I find that the removal or addition of spoilers are a quick an effective way of altering the forward lean of a boot. Changing the forward lean by altering the shell is not a modification easily done.
IMO, the change in forward lean should always be done independently of boot board or ramp angle, to avoid changes to two variables at the same time. Heel lifting or gas pedaling on the outside of the shell change both at once.