Observation en question on bindings

[Philpug]

Now that I think about it, I don't know about binding engineers, but at my company they design in a healthy safety factor. 12 or 14 probably just represents the end of the adjustment range, not the actual spring that still has enough action for 27-45 mm of elastic travel in a Pivot/SPX binding

The 12 is 4-12, the 14 is 5-14 and for another variation comparison, the upcoming 15 is a 6-15. What does it matter if you are running your binding at say a 7? Well, with the 12 and the 14, absolutely nothing, they are the same exact binding other than the spring. Not till you get to the 15, do you get into a different binding, the all metal singe Pivot toe. Now with that said, while the 12 and the 14 are identical, the 15 and 18 are...but since we are using the setting of 7 in this example, the 18 is not in the picture. Now this is the example using Look...and these specific bindings. We might have variations when talking about Tyrolia, Salomon and Marker.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Broken metal.

 

[Marker]

The 12 is 4-12, the 14 is 5-14 and for another variation comparison, the upcoming 15 is a 6-15. What does it matter if you are running your binding at say a 7? Well, with the 12 and the 14, absolutely nothing, they are the same exact binding other than the spring. Not till you get to the 15, do you get into a different binding, the all metal singe Pivot toe. Now with that said, while the 12 and the 14 are identical, the 15 and 18 are...but since we are using the setting of 7 in this example, the 18 is not in the picture. Now this is the example using Look...and these specific bindings. We might have variations when talking about Tyrolia, Salomon and Marker.

Sure, but my thought is that a binding cranked to its maximum setting still has enough elastic travel to function as intended because the engineers don't push the spring beyond its ability to do so. They'll leave enough elastic travel in the spring to function properly if they are like the engineers I know at work.

 

[Philpug]

Sure, but my thought is that a binding cranked to its maximum setting still has enough elastic travel to function as intended because the engineers don't push the spring beyond its ability to do so. They'll leave enough elastic travel in the spring to function properly if they are like the engineers I know at work.

As mentioned...

It's a little bit like choosing a high-performance tire. The tire that has the performance features you want (e.g. Michelin Pilot ) comes with a V speed rating. You buy it, even though you will never drive your car at 149 mph for 1/2 an hour or more (or work it that hard for that long on a twisty road or take the car to the track).

And I used a similar tire example in my original article.

Like the tires on your car, bindings are crucial to both safety and performance and not a place I would suggest taking a shortcut. When you are looking at a better binding, you are not just buying a bigger or stronger spring, you are also buying a better housing. And, like tires, as long as the binding has a DIN range that matches your setting, it is never a bad idea to get the best option possible.

Sure you can, buy why would you?

But still we are also taking about the housing. Using your point of "functioning properly", you could ski a 7.5 junior AC(Adult/Child compatable) binding and while running it at a 7, it will surely fuction properly within range.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Now that I think about it, I don't know about binding engineers, but at my company they design in a healthy safety factor. 12 or 14 probably just represents the end of the adjustment range, not the actual spring that still has enough action for 27-45 mm of elastic travel in a Pivot/SPX binding

Bindings are indemnified for their advertised range of adjustment. I believe they are safe anywhere in their range.

 

[Philpug]

Bindings are indemnified for their advertised range of adjustment. I believe they are safe function as designed anywhere in their range.

FIFY

 

[XSki]

To bump this up with a question somewhat in the range of this thread: I have a pivot 18 with a broken spring. No pictures (yet). Are these springs for sale? Or search for some old 18's and reassemble? In that light: would it be possible to use a lighter spring from a 14 (or 12)? Is the housing of the same dimensions? Has the 14 (12) spring the same diameter and lenght and is the difference in the thickness off the thread?

Lot of questions for a 1 post. But the right answers would come in handy and would satisfy my curiousity

 

[Philpug]

To bump this up with a question somewhat in the range of this thread: I have a pivot 18 with a broken spring. No pictures (yet). Are these springs for sale? Or search for some old 18's and reassemble? In that light: would it be possible to use a lighter spring from a 14 (or 12)? Is the housing of the same dimensions? Has the 14 (12) spring the same diameter and lenght and is the difference in the thickness off the thread?

Lot of questions for a 1 post. But the right answers would come in handy and would satisfy my curiousity

Toe or heel? If it is the heel, and since it is the same housing design across the board, you should be able to swap to the spring from a 12 or 14. The toe spring might be a different length because the the difference between the milti directional toe and the single pivot one. As far as just the spring being available? Not from Look, they won't even let a consumer buy a settings window, it has to be sent back to Look to get replaced....but that is here in the U.S..

 

[Uncle-A]

Part of the selling feature of the Look line is the elastic toe. The return to center is the best in the business. What they also use as a feature is that you can set it below the recommended chart setting because of the good return to center feature. At my size I would probably be a 7 DIN but I would have no doubt I can ski a Look at a 5 DIN.

 

[XSki]

Thx for the answers. It is the heel piece spring. Both of them. Couple of days ago I openen several Look bindings and found that there are a lot of similarities. I looked at 2 different SpX (din12) a Rossi labeled and a Look labeled one. Also a Rossi Hero (look) rockerace 150 (din15) with the pivot 18 MD toe and ‘fixed’ heel. And the broken spring pivot 18 Andy a newer 18. I measured the springs although I wasn’t able to measure the heelsprings of the spx and rockerace.

All of the toe springs we’re the same diameter (28mm), had almost the same lenght: both pivot 18 are 51mm and the others - including the rockerace ‘pivot18’-style toe - measured 52mm.
The big difference was in the thickness off the wire: 5,8mm in the pivot 18 and 4.9 in the rest. Funny thing is that the toe spring of the rockerace 150 is exactly the same as the toe spring in both din12 bindings.

I measured the pivot 18 heel spring at 60/61 in lenghts, 20mm diameter (15 H-H) and 5,0 thick. As said I wasn’t able to open up and measure the heel pieces of the others completely but the thickness of the wire seems to be 4,9mm for all of the spx/rockerace, diameter 20mm (failliet educated guess with inaccurate measuring) and 52mm in lenght, but that’s even more inaccurate measuring. Still, I believe it comes close.

All in all I think a lot of springs are compatible. Thing is that if you swap a 18 spring with 15 or 14 spring, the din scale is off. The setting Windows are not the same. You have to measure everything on a machine and adjust the numbers on the scale. Bit like mph vs km speedometer.

 

[Philpug]

Thx for the answers. It is the heel piece spring. Both of them. Couple of days ago I openen several Look bindings and found that there are a lot of similarities. I looked at 2 different SpX (din12) a Rossi labeled and a Look labeled one. Also a Rossi Hero (look) rockerace 150 (din15) with the pivot 18 MD toe and ‘fixed’ heel. And the broken spring pivot 18 Andy a newer 18. I measured the springs although I wasn’t able to measure the heelsprings of the spx and rockerace.

All of the toe springs we’re the same diameter (28mm), had almost the same lenght: both pivot 18 are 51mm and the others - including the rockerace ‘pivot18’-style toe - measured 52mm.
The big difference was in the thickness off the wire: 5,8mm in the pivot 18 and 4.9 in the rest. Funny thing is that the toe spring of the rockerace 150 is exactly the same as the toe spring in both din12 bindings.

I measured the pivot 18 heel spring at 60/61 in lenghts, 20mm diameter (15 H-H) and 5,0 thick. As said I wasn’t able to open up and measure the heel pieces of the others completely but the thickness of the wire seems to be 4,9mm for all of the spx/rockerace, diameter 20mm (failliet educated guess with inaccurate measuring) and 52mm in lenght, but that’s even more inaccurate measuring. Still, I believe it comes close.

All in all I think a lot of springs are compatible. Thing is that if you swap a 18 spring with 15 or 14 spring, the din scale is off. The setting Windows are not the same. You have to measure everything on a machine and adjust the numbers on the scale. Bit like mph vs km speedometer.
View attachment 106164 View attachment 106164 View attachment 106165

What the window says and what the binding torques are different, that is why bindings get torque tested. The binding would "fail" here in the U.S. but by testing it and playing witht eh tension, you should be able to get it to function within range. You should be able to find a spring. I have some here but it is a PITA to ship to Europe.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Most shops won't fix bindings anyways. If i had good reason to need an 18 din doubt i would start swapping in used parts

 

[François Pugh]

Most shops won't fix bindings anyways. If i had good reason to need an 18 din doubt i would start swapping in used parts

I had the same problem when I broke a garage door spring; everybody wanted to sell me a new garage door with new springs for a few grand, but no one would sell me a spring.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I had the same problem when I broke a garage door spring; everybody wanted to sell me a new garage door with new springs for a few grand, but no one would sell me a spring.

Those springs are dangerous. Don't ask how I know.

 

[Uncle-A]

I had the same problem when I broke a garage door spring; everybody wanted to sell me a new garage door with new springs for a few grand, but no one would sell me a spring.

That is a surprise, when my garage door spring broke it was about $20.00 each at Home Depot. I did replace the pair because if one broke the other was the same age and could go bad anytime. Plus I didn't think that one new spring and one old one was a good idea.

 

[François Pugh]

That is a surprise, when my garage door spring broke it was about $20.00 each at Home Depot. I did replace the pair because if one broke the other was the same age and could go bad anytime. Plus I didn't think that one new spring and one old one was a good idea.

Thanks for that. It's been a few years. Maybe I'll check Home Depot the next time I get a chance (I can't recall if we even had one in town when I last went looking). That old wooden double car garage door with I'm guessing 17 layers of heavy lead paint) is heavy enough that I seldom lift it, even with one good spring still working (no room left for a car in there anyway).

 

[XSki]

Most shops won't fix bindings anyways. If i had good reason to need an 18 din doubt i would start swapping in used parts

Agree, but I don’t have a good reason to need an 18 other than I like the metal and the toe of the 18 (hurray for the new 15). However, now the springs are broken, it got me thinking: can I use lighter springs so I am able to downsize a bit if necassary. I ski at 8 or 9, sometimes 10. That’s at the very bottom scalewise.
So, Out of curiousity and NOT spending a lot of money at buying new bindings, I came up with the idea of using springs of other pivots.

@Philpug: I hope I can find a couple of springs. I know a couple of guys in various skishops. If I do: testing will provide the definite go or no go.

 

[XSki]

Oh, and for the ones who wonder how I broke both springs: I don not know. But the fact that the skis with these bindings used to belong to a former FIS WC freestyle skier, has a lot to do with it. At least in my mind.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Agree, but I don’t have a good reason to need an 18 other than I like the metal and the toe of the 18 (hurray for the new 15). However, now the springs are broken, it got me thinking: can I use lighter springs so I am able to downsize a bit if necassary. I ski at 8 or 9, sometimes 10. That’s at the very bottom scalewise.
So, Out of curiousity and NOT spending a lot of money at buying new bindings, I came up with the idea of using springs of other pivots.

@Philpug: I hope I can find a couple of springs. I know a couple of guys in various skishops. If I do: testing will provide the definite go or no go.

Sounds good to me and if my 13 yr old can break 11 din the more metal the better.

 

[markojp]

I have heard of Look heels breaking like that, I have never seen one though.

I've returned a couple pairs of customer bindings for warranty over the past 2-3 seasons. Rare, but it does happen.