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Not hip dumping. What’s it take?

karlo

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Many of us may know that hip dumps are bad. Instructors will ask us not to do it. Well, what does it take, actually, not to do it? Here’s one take.

What a hip dump is has been discussed in another thread, “What is a hip dump”,

https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-is-a-hip-dump.8353/

Here are a few insightful replies.

There are many views on what hip dump is.
My definition is that hip dump is when the hip is moved or rotated without the movement having any functional advantage.
IMO the most common way of dumping the hip is counter that happens around the subtalar joint instead of the hip joint. It counters the body but de-edges the ski.

Karlo, I posted this video by kate Howe in the Carving Ma thread. Kate describes what hip dump is beginning a 5:00 in. Her solution begins at approximately 7:15 in. Pretty much in line with what @Jamt states above

Hip dump is a move often prompted by a desire to get the hip low to the snow, mimicking racers at the gate in GS.

I think that those who hip dump unintentionally, as Kate Howe is describing may simply either have weak glutes or are not used to firing the right ones. I think I have been rotating my pelvis and hip dumping on my left turns. And, as she describes, it’s a compensation in the effort to not lift the opposing pelvis, an attempt to keep the pelvis level, starting at about 3:45 of the video. Well, then, why might one lift the pelvis? I discovered one reason, not firing appropriate glutes.

It so happens that I injured my left hip and have been working to rehabilitate it. My retired-pro-ballerina trainer had me do a passé on Friday. It was solid, on my right leg. On my left, I lifted my right pelvis and started shearing/rotating. What did it take to stop it? I couldn’t figure it out. This morning I did. Activate a part of my left glute that was not firing. It was automatic on the right, but I had to think really hard to do it on my left. Check out this video


This dancer/coach explains, towards the end, not lifting the hip. That’s what I’m talking about. So, folks that are not used to activating the proper glutes (and core), will hip dump, almost always. Those with weak glutes will hip dump if the forces are too high.

Give it a try. In front of a mirror, what’s your hip doing in a passè. What do you think of this as a root cause? What other root causes might there be?
 

Chris V.

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Kate Howe's video is spot on. Jamt's point about the involvement of counterproductive movement in the subtalar joints is also great.

Angulation is great. Getting the hip close to the snow is great. Upper-lower body separation or (whispered) **counter** is great. But the magnitude of these movements has to be justified by the shape and speed of the turn, and what is needed to achieve balance in that turn. So if a skier us doing a slow motion medium radius turn, the vertical separation of the feet won't be there, and it won't be possible to drop the hip with lateral movements in the hip joint. The cheat is to turn the knees outward, which comes from the subtalar joints, thus making it possible to get the hips low by sitting down. Which, as Kate Howe says, isn't a good objective in and of itself.
 

Noodler

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For me, my understanding of it is pretty simple:

Hip Dump = the hips move inside of the turn first, before the legs, and certainly before any major tipping of the feet.

The correct way to create angles occurs in this order:
  1. Foot tipping (inversion/eversion)
  2. Which leads to the legs/knees coming inside (angulation)
  3. And finally the pelvis, which should always be last coming inside
There's a lot more to this (some might consider them nuances), but at a very high level, you should be working to create angles (between the skis and the snow) before you resort to dumping your hip inside.
 

Noodler

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I should add that the feeling I strive for is that my foot tipping results in pulling my legs into the inside of the turn, then the legs pull the hip into the inside of the turn. The goal is to exhaust as much tipping range as you have before letting the hip come inside. The key factor in accomplishing this type of tipping is flexing your knees.
 
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karlo

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I should add that the feeling I strive for is that my foot tipping results in pulling my legs into the inside of the turn, then the legs pull the hip into the inside of the turn. The goal is to exhaust as much tipping range as you have before letting the hip come inside. The key factor in accomplishing this type of tipping is flexing your knees.

So, would you say that another potential root cause for hip dumping is fear of tipping?
 

Henry

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folks that are not used to activating the proper glutes (and core), will hip dump, almost always. Those with weak glutes will hip dump if the forces are too high.
Core strength, including glutes and others in the area, doesn't get the attention it deserves. Too much attention is placed on conditioning the quads at the expense of other areas.
 

Chris V.

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Core strength, including glutes and others in the area, doesn't get the attention it deserves. Too much attention is placed on conditioning the quads at the expense of other areas.

In skiing, we don't (or shouldn't) even use the quads much in high intensity concentric tension. Their biggest role is in eccentric tension, resisting outside forces. So how does this influence the types of dryland conditioning exercises we should be doing targeting the quads?
 

Noodler

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So, would you say that another potential root cause for hip dumping is fear of tipping?

I think I will need more detail on what you mean by "fear of tipping". What exactly is the fear? Is it the fear of falling over (being out of balance)? The tipping I'm referring to is tipping of the feet, not inclination of the body into the hill (in case there was confusion).
 

razie

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I don't know about the part with pros asking you not to do it... it is pretty common wherever I've been anyways.

I see it like @Noodler - hip dumping is whenever the hip moves into the turn before enough ski angles were developed, i.e. via foot tipping. Jamt's description is more technical...

What that takes, to cure, in my experience, is a lot of focus on foot tipping. I've been there done that myself and had it cured by a facilitator who somehow honestly wanted me to pass my level 2 (on the racing side). The problem is that this level 2 includes skiing a U12 (tight) level slalom course with stubbies and if you rely on hip dumping, you can't ski a stubbie course to par, especially if you're lucky and it's frozen solid or rutted that day... because your angles develop too slowly and the edge engagement is never solid enough.

Once he awakened me to what is going on, and given prior technical knowledge, it took 3 days of slow lonely practice (just three drills) to cure it and then, sure enough, passed the course with flying colours, to the amazement of the said examiner.

In the following, I think decade, I taught probably tens of racers at all levels out of the same thing (some into the thing and then out of it).

The problems are:
- you don't know you're doing it
- you don't know how the ideal turn should be accomplished, technically
- you don't know how to fix it.

This is probably the best image to describe it and show the antidote by ways of contrast, me on the left (before understanding it) and a great skier on the right (JFB), thanks to @LiquidFeet ...



the difference I think should be obvious: leg flexing in transition, to enable foot tipping... and then, obviously, foot tipping...

It took a while to fix: same setup I think, a season or two later, much nicer pants - some improvements:

effective-improvement-blue.jpg


The best way to fix it is to work on inside foot tipping - many ways to explain it biomechanically, a simple one is perhaps because it introduces an opposite rotation which effectively blocks hip dumping.
 
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karlo

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I think I will need more detail on what you mean by "fear of tipping". What exactly is the fear? Is it the fear of falling over (being out of balance)? The tipping I'm referring to is tipping of the feet, not inclination of the body into the hill (in case there was confusion).

Fear of the result of the entire sequence. But, I suppose that’s beyond the scope of the physical rehab section. There’s actually another thread discussing fear
 

Chris V.

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What that takes, to cure, in my experience, is a lot of focus on foot tipping.

Allowing the legs to rotate outward over the feet (rotation in the subtalar joints) is the opposite of foot tipping. As Jmts discussed, it results in the edge angles of the feet, hence the skis, deteriorating.

A skier who is hip dumping may think he's creating upper-lower body separation, because the orientation of the hips and shoulders moves in the direction of the outside of the turn. But he isn't. The separation takes place all the way down at the subtalar joints rather than at the hip joints.

Funny thing, I was just looking at those photos you-know-where.
 

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I think I will need more detail on what you mean by "fear of tipping". What exactly is the fear? Is it the fear of falling over (being out of balance)? The tipping I'm referring to is tipping of the feet, not inclination of the body into the hill (in case there was confusion).

Tipping the new inside foot onto its little toe edge is the same tipping that happens when an ankle is sprained. New skiers who have sprained their ankles in the past may be afraid of spraining their ankle again. This fear is based on experience, thus difficult to dislodge. Add to that the fact that an ankle tipped in that direction is weak, even for seasoned skiers. The student needs to have an enormous trust in the instructor to try this despite the fear, or they need to have never sprained their ankle.
 
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Eleeski

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I'm not sure what hip dump is or even specific steps to improve edging. I do know that during the time when my hip was bad, I really sucked on ice. I worked hard to figure out ice - lessons, race ski demos, edge filing, gates and everything I could think of. I still couldn't deal with icy conditions. I was leaning in with my upper body and unable to isolate my feet and knees from my upper body and head (is that hip dumping?).

Note, I was fine in bumps, soft snow and powder.

First run in icy conditions with my new Birmingham hip was magic. Mediocre skis, edges that weren't particularly sharp and some unpleasantly hard snow didn't interfere with enjoying sweet carving.

If your skeleton or hips can't move properly, your pretty carving style will suffer. Perhaps you can compensate with muscle strength and awareness. For me, it took some titanium.

Eric
 

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Tipping the new inside foot onto its little toe edge is the same tipping that happens when an ankle is sprained. New skiers who have sprained their ankles in the past are afraid of spraining their ankle again. This fear is based on experience, thus difficult to dislodge. Add to that the fact that an ankle tipped in that direction is weak, even for seasoned skiers. The student needs to have an enormous trust in the instructor to try this despite the fear, or they need to have never sprained their ankle.

Interesting observation. I have had many, many ankle sprains in my life. Started when I was in high school as a pole vaulter. So I get the idea that the inversion of the foot can drum up some ugly memories. However, I don't think that ever crossed my mind when I was first being taught this technique.
 

Noodler

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Since this thread is about what it takes to get rid of hip dumping I thought I'd add that I am a hip dumper extraordinaire. ;) I have fought this battle for years and years. For me it still takes very conscious thought to stay on top of getting the movements in the right order. It's still not entirely natural for me.

So to the OP, knowing the right movements is the first step. Practicing the correct movements and then making them ingrained in your skiing is the bigger challenge.
 

razie

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Tipping the new inside foot onto its little toe edge is the same tipping that happens when an ankle is sprained. New skiers who have sprained their ankles in the past are afraid of spraining their ankle again. This fear is based on experience, thus difficult to dislodge. Add to that the fact that an ankle tipped in that direction is weak, even for seasoned skiers. The student needs to have an enormous trust in the instructor to try this despite the fear, or they need to have never sprained their ankle.

Interesting take on that. Yes, dealing with injury is one of the complex things we have to do. I've had to deal with this specifically and worse, with surgeries and serious blocking issues on the same and other joints part of the same kinetic chain etc - it comes with the territory, for some (racers). Agreed, it's more complex and the results may never be as good as otherwise... and probably really difficult to deal with in a recreational setting (the fabled one hour lesson).

It's worth noting that we're talking release and initiation and that foot NOT under load, no injury can actually occur at that point, as far as I can think... sprains occur with the foot under load and eversion does not have that much ROM to put you in trouble. In fact, with foot tipping, it's safer, because the feet are in place and engaged as load appears, later in the turn, as opposed to randomly landing with load on a relaxed or surprised ankle - if you didn't pay attention to them, your ankles are likely in whichever random state... so prone to accidental loads in weird positions... while if you focused on rolling the ankles and foot tipping, they're already tensioned and ready for action, in the right position to accept the load...
 
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karlo

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I'm not sure what hip dump is or even specific steps to improve edging. I do know that during the time when my hip was bad, I really sucked on ice. I worked hard to figure out ice - lessons, race ski demos, edge filing, gates and everything I could think of. I still couldn't deal with icy conditions. I was leaning in with my upper body and unable to isolate my feet and knees from my upper body and head (is that hip dumping?).

Note, I was fine in bumps, soft snow and powder.

First run in icy conditions with my new Birmingham hip was magic. Mediocre skis, edges that weren't particularly sharp and some unpleasantly hard snow didn't interfere with enjoying sweet carving.

If your skeleton or hips can't move properly, your pretty carving style will suffer. Perhaps you can compensate with muscle strength and awareness. For me, it took some titanium.

Eric

So, what limitations in motion and strength did the old hip have?
 
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karlo

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New skiers who have sprained their ankles in the past are afraid of spraining their ankle again. This fear is based on experience, thus difficult to dislodge.

I've had to deal with this specifically and worse, with surgeries and serious blocking issues on the same and other joints part of the same kinetic chain etc - it comes with the territory, for some (racers). Agreed, it's more complex and the results may never be as good as otherwise... and probably really difficult to deal with in a recreational setting (the fabled one hour lesson).

Ever see Kill Bill and the scene in which she tried to move her foot? That was me a couple days ago, trying to do a passé standing on my left leg. I couldn’t get myself to do it without the equivalent of a hip dump. One, I didn’t know what muscles to fire. Two, once I thought to try those muscles, I had trouble actually doing it. Three, once I did it, it was hard doing it. Hours later, now, those glute muscles are still burning. So yeah, anyone who suffered an injury, like the ankle, will try to avoid reoccurrence. They may, like me, lose the ability to even “know” how to do it. And, for a learner to seek advancement and never get there because of some dysfunction that he or she may not even be aware of, one that can be addressed by rehab, that must be so disheartening. One might just give up and walk away from skiing.

That said, I really like @SSSdave ’s post here,

https://www.pugski.com/posts/398560/

Walking the hill, with an instructor or coach, and doing all the motions needed, better yet in shoes rather than ski boots, would help assess whether or not there are basic capabilities that need to be worked on. The instructor coach would need to have a checklist to go through and a trained eye.
 

razie

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So yeah, anyone who suffered an injury, like the ankle, will try to avoid reoccurrence. They may, like me, lose the ability to even “know” how to do it.

Talk to Tom Gellie - he'll fix you. Great guy and very knowledgeable, fixes movement injuries for fun, (or rather the subconcious compensations they cause), kind of a specialty for him. I don't think he posts here, you'll find him on Facebook. Look for The Foot Collective / Tom Gellie. He can ski, too (sic!)

cheers
 
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