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Noobie MA

Chris V.

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I should say that I am able to hockey stop both directions relatively consistently using the method in this video .

I have a harder time pivoting while continuing to move more or less straight down the hill.

I take issue with the video piece's use of the phrase "foot rotation" to describe what is used to make a hockey stop. That terminology can be misleading, because the rotation should be of the full legs, starting at the hip joint. I think of "foot rotation" as being rotation of the feet relative to the knees. This movement is made entirely below the knees, and results in flattening of the skis, not at all what one needs to create the edge angles for braking in a hockey stop. It's very important for developing skiers to reach an understanding of the difference between these two movements.

However, the demos in the video are fine.

This is a good exercise to practice. The goal should be to develop the ability to make the hockey stop in a straight line down the hill. This requires management of the relationship of the center of mass to the skis, management of flexion of the joints, and refraining from tipping the feet into the hill strongly until the skis have pivoted perpendicular to the fall line. A common fault you will see is a skier scooting out into a fish hook before stopping. This is a result of too much edging, and too much pressure on the edges, too early, before the skis have fully pivoted.

In the last part of the video, the demonstrator shows how hockey stops can be modified to use as a method of ending one turn, and making the transition into the next turn. Some of us like to call these "hockey gos." These can be quite useful in steeps and tight spots, but I would NOT recommend making them a basis for your go-to turn pattern. Most of the time, we look to avoid jamming on the edges, which is fundamentally a braking maneuver.
 

Mike King

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I have a harder time pivoting while continuing to move more or less straight down the hill.

Most likely, the reason is that you are not moving the hip over the feet to flatten the skis. Hockey stops are one way to try to isolate femur (whole leg) rotation, but they fail to couple the other mechanics, namely flattening the skis, to access the steering of the ski in a turn. Here's the picture of ownership of the separation (a bracquage turn):


And while I don't particularly like some aspects of the video below, it does show the other part that is important, the movement of the hips down the hill to allow the skis to flatten. Don't use the pole, but watch his hips.


The Skia is a good balance device, but I don't that you can really practice the leg rotation while executing the difficult balance aspects fo using the Skia. And if you think the indoor exercise I gave you is too basic, we use it with training Level 3 and Ed staff in PSIA Rocky Mountain. The key is to get in front of a mirror where you can clearly see what is happening. Are you moving the hip? Or is all of the movement coming from the counteracting rotation of the legs?

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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Standing in front of a mirror, a tall one balanced on the floor against a wall, is an excellent way to practice and understand this business of turning the legs under a stable body. You need a slippery floor and/or slippery socks, or a dry dishrag under each foot. Someone mentioned paper plates; I've never done tht one but it sounds like it would work.

1. Stand looking straight at the mirror, toes pointed at the mirror, feet side-by-side.
2. Elevate your toes a little, and rotate both toes to point to your left. Allow your upper body (hips, too) to rotate with the feet to look to your left.
3. Your feet will line up with each other and you'll fall over. So hold onto something. Ski poles are OK; the kitchen counter or a heavy chair are better.
4. Now do it without allowing your hips to rotate; your upper body, hips included, should stay facing the mirror. Or sort of. Your range of motion in your hip anatomy may prohibit a full 90º separation. That's OK.
5. Do the rotation to face to your right.
==============
6. Now do the same thing again, this time starting with heels slightly lifted. Rotate both feet so they point to your left, with upper body following.
7. Same, with upper body stable, so you are facing the mirror.
8. Same, pointing feet to the right.
==============
9. Do it all again, this time without lifting any part of your feet.
In other words pivot/rotate with the pivot point under your arch.
This is what we want to do on the snow.
==============
**To do any of these on snow, you'll need to move one foot/ski out of the way to make room for the skis to not bump into each other. Which foot/ski you move matters, and in which direction matters. On snow, as you are sliding down the hill, you'll need to move your "inside" foot, which would be the left foot in a left rotation. You'll need to move it relative to the outside foot back uphill, essentially behind you. This does not mean move it uphill relative to the hill; both feet and skis will continue to travel down the hill, just so you know. Whenever your feet/skis are pointed to the trees at the side of the hill, one foot is higher than the other because there's a hill under you. That's all I'm talking about. But your kitchen floor is not tilted.
10. To mimic this In front of the mirror, this means when you are rotating your feet to your left, you can slide that rotating left foot back away from the mirror, straight back, so the left foot is to the side of the right foot when you get them pointed to the left. Consider this "advanced" dryland training. Practice this in front of the mirror and watch that your hips rotate as little as possible. You may find that your upper body wants to tilt; don't let it.
==============
11. Your ultimate goal is to do the rotation over the arch, with as little rotation at the hip and above as possible given your anatomy, and slide that inside foot sideways back uphill as it rotates so you remain stable and so the skis don't bump into each other on snow. Oh, and keep the upper body vertical, not tilting.

That was a lot of words. Ignore if desired. Gotta go ski now.
 
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Corgski

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Uh Oh! If you have been following the early progressions in Elate Media Ski School, this could explain some of the flaws in your skiing. I did try them myself when I started, fortunately did not stick with it for long. The methods taught were more common once but have been considered poor practice for a long time. Another flaw is that he in the early demonstrations he tends to actively use his edges (as he should) but never even mentions this to the viewer. Someone trying to follow his instructions is not going to get the same turn as he does.
 

Corgski

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Second possible Uh Oh! I have used and liked the Skia, but I did encounter a very nasty side effect when getting back on skis. Looking at your video again, this may be an issue for you too.

The Skia is good at teaching what a balanced position is but tends to ingrain completely wrong muscle movements to maintain that position. Two of the muscles used in keeping you forward on a ski are the Tibialis Anterior (TA), which "closes the ankle" and the hamstrings which "closes the knee". The hamstrings closes the ankle indirectly by pulling your feet back. The TA is relatively weak, your hamstrings are strong and should be doing the bulk of the work in managing your fore-aft position on a ski. On a Skia you cannot pull back your feet the same way as on a ski so your hamstrings are a minor player, you maintain balance using upper body position and your TA far more than on a ski. Maintaining balance on a ski the same way as you do on a Skia is going to feel awkward and weak.

Using your hamstrings you should have no problem controlling your fore-aft balance. If you cannot consciously shift to using your hamstrings (whoever consciously thinks of activating hamstrings?) I am going to suggest you try something that is bad technique but may answer the question. While skiing, try relaxing your feet as much as possible and then hold/pull your feet back while keeping feet relaxed. This will hopefully force your brain to use the hamstrings. This is bad technique in that you want to initiate all movements from your feet, so "relax your feet" is not usually good advice, however this is just an experiment and I am open to other ways of trying this. If you have not been using your hamstrings and the above experiment activates them, the sense of increase in strength and control can be quite dramatic. Once you feel the difference, you should be able to work on using the hamstrings in a less artificial manner.
 
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dbostedo

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While skiing, try relaxing your feet as much as possible and then hold/pull your feet back while keeping feet relaxed. This will hopefully force your brain to use the hamstrings. This is bad technique in that you want to initiate all movements from your feet, so "relax your feet" is not usually good advice, however this is just an experiment and I am open to other ways of trying this.
I can add something to that. This method did not/does not tend to work for me as I was learning to get out of the backseat... I would tend to shuffle my feet back, without really being in balance because I was so far in the backseat, and my feet would work their way right back out again. (I.e. pulling my feet back would always turn into a quick shuffle back and forward, because I couldn't maintain balance with them back.)

What did/does work for me is to feel tension/pulling in the front of my ankles, and in my core, which serves to remind me and lever me a bit more forward overall, into a better, more balanced position. That "clicked" for me a lot better. Plus, as you mentioned, it reminds me to work from the feet up in terms of tipping and turning.

This is for someone who spent years with burning quads not understanding what centered and balanced really were, and that I needed to be more forward (and is still working at it). It may not apply to someone with less of that issue. The OP doesn't seem to be too in the backseat, but very well may be over-terrained for learning.
 

Scruffy

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Just want to take a moment to say though that I'm honestly not trying to stir the pot here, I was unaware that some of my words or phrases are loaded/controversial and tread on ideological schisms which I apologize for. I've been reading this forum (and made a couple comments), youtube videos, skiing technique articles, etc a bunch since last season. I'm a pretty nerdy, technical, research oriented person who loves understanding how things work. Only trying to speak you guys' language as best as possible since it seems to be the most concise way of understanding over the internet. I am far from an expert. Probably also am analyzing things to death, which I'm prone to do, and need to discuss less and ski more. Thank you to everyone for providing such detailed technical responses (and non-technical nuggets of wisdom of course) though, it's definitely helping my conceptual understanding and I find it all quite fascinating.

No need to apologize, AchtungSki. You're doing what your are suppose to be doing at your stage in development; asking questions. The amount of help you're getting here goes to show you the good heart these instructors have in wanting to help you. That bolded part ^^^ will take you far in your quest to become an expert skier. Keep at it. Remember: "it's not the destination that matters it's the journey" enjoy the ride.
 

Corgski

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I can add something to that. This method did not/does not tend to work for me as I was learning to get out of the backseat... I would tend to shuffle my feet back, without really being in balance because I was so far in the backseat, and my feet would work their way right back out again. (I.e. pulling my feet back would always turn into a quick shuffle back and forward, because I couldn't maintain balance with them back.)

What did/does work for me is to feel tension/pulling in the front of my ankles, and in my core, which serves to remind me and lever me a bit more forward overall, into a better, more balanced position. That "clicked" for me a lot better. Plus, as you mentioned, it reminds me to work from the feet up in terms of tipping and turning.

This is for someone who spent years with burning quads not understanding what centered and balanced really were, and that I needed to be more forward (and is still working at it). It may not apply to someone with less of that issue. The OP doesn't seem to be too in the backseat, but very well may be over-terrained for learning.

Yes, my post is not meant to be generally applicable at all, I would not have written it if he had not mentioned using the Skia trainer. I am just suggesting the possibility that using it could have ingrained a different muscle response so that he does not get the same muscle activation along the chain (specifically hamstrings) that you would when tensioning ankles and core. Yes he is forward, but there seems to be something wrong with how he is keeping himself forward. Anyone who has not put in meaningful time on something like the Skia trainer is probably best advised to ignore my post.

It is a little like how they found that Bosu ball training negatively affected the performance of football players by ingraining the wrong muscle response for what they actually needed to do.
 
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AchtungSki

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@Mike King Ah I see, so basically I'm getting caught uphill of my skis when I try that. What's the proper way of moving the hips over the feet in braquage when there is no pole to lean over onto?

@LiquidFeet That's a pretty instructional drill. It's pretty immediate to me why counter is a good thing!

@Corgski Ah that resonates with me. I remember the first time I used the Skias my TAs got lit up pretty good by the time I took my boots off. I'll have to try that hamstring "Stroke the Ski" idea posted earlier next time I'm out on the hill.

Just to see if I'm on the right track with the the femur rotation stuff, I recorded a quick dryland video of me. I've got the Skias on my boots just to make it easy to rotate on the arch. I made sure to only gently rest my hands on top of the poles (i.e not bracing my upper body from moving) to remove the balance element on the skias in order to get good consistent footage. I can do the same movement without the poles, just obviously is a little tougher to do as many repetitions without wobbling. First is intentionally allowing my hips/upper body to turn with the legs and then second is separated femur rotation (hopefully lol). Seeing it on video, my feet are probably a little too far apart but hopefully it's the general idea.

 

LiquidFeet

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^^You've got it. The Skias make rotating over the arch pretty easy.

Now try to do it without letting your hips tilt. Keep your pelvis level.
This may involve lifting the left side of the pelvis when you turn left, and the right side when you turn right.
The torso will have to travel a little left-right to keep the hips level, and that's OK. On the hill now you tilt your torso. That's something you need to replace with a non-tilted torso, and everything going on with the torso starts with the hips.

When you are next on snow, go to the bunny slope and try each of the different ways instructors here have suggested you use to you start your turns.
Get things to work on the flattest pitch available. It's good for your balance, and it allows your focus to be intense.

Your goals will be to:
(a) keep your body low between turns, NOT moving up with leg extension, as you do now.
(b) allow the skis to turn while the hips/torso don't turn, as in the indoor exercise; in other words, make the femur rotation work, using it to keep your torso facing more down the hill as the skis turn left and right.
(c) work on keeping the hips/pelvis/torso level, not banked/leaning in.

Get video (camera held horizontal) of you making runs down that beginner trail. Ask the videographer to stand half way down at the side of the trail.
For each run that you get video, ski all the way down the hill, continuing past the videographer far enough away for the camera to capture your feet and your head as you go by. Seeing you ski from the side will reveal whether you're in the back seat or not..
 
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AchtungSki

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I made it out to the hill yesterday to try out some of the suggestions and wanted to give feedback @LiquidFeet @Josh Matta

No video this time, I went by myself in order to be able to concentrate/work at a slow pace and to eliminate any peer pressure to have fun ogwink. Went to the green and I tried the new inside leg rotation approach first and found it to be a little tricky. Not sure what was blocking me exactly but I found it tough to get a turn initiated and if I did my skis would go different directions throwing me off balance. I tried the new outside rotation approach next and found that more natural, probably because Im used to using that leg to initiate. Took a couple runs just focusing on that pivoting feeling in both legs, seeing how far I could separate, etc. and not caring much about my turn shape or flexing to release. Decided to give the inside leg method another try while also focusing more on the flex to release part and then suddenly it clicked for me. I felt the balance and passive rotation on the outside ski, the active focus on flexing and steering the inside bringing the tips around together, it was satisfying! Now if I will say if I had someone there to instruct/correct me I think the inside rotation focus might have worked better initially. I think though I needed to wake up that pivoting feeling first before I could use it effectively on the inside leg. I did seem to occasionally run into an issue where, when flexing to release, the new outside would tend to diverge and run down the fall line, leading to some rather awkward looking fumbling around I'm sure. My guess is that's because I didn't actually transfer my weight and still was weighting the new inside too much and wasn't trusting the new outside?

Like I said no video proof, but I'm 95% sure that I was skiing with much more separation and the proper release for subsequent runs. Definitely a different sensation than how I was skiing before. For giggles I took a few runs down the steeper slope just to challenge myself and I found that I was still able to get that femur rotation. I felt noticeably more in control of my speed as well. Back on the easier slope I tried messing around with making fast short turns and found I was able to kind of do them actually, didn't have enough coordination yet to maintain my rhythm all the way down hill but I felt the "quiet upper body, busy legs" feeling as I moved straight down the fall line.

I still noticed that if I wasn't focusing I'd occasionally just autopilot the up and over move or find my hips following my skis, so more work to do there obviously. Also, this all isn't to say that I'll be hitting the world cup circuit anytime soon of course lol. Still definitely going to get some lessons. @Kneale Brownson gave me some names to look into on that front which I greatly appreciate.

But what started as a bit of a frustrating afternoon turned out to be quite encouraging and satisfying by the time the lifts stopped spinning I think. Without a doubt I managed to absorb at least some of the knowledge/advice you all have given me, I think you've set me off down the right path and I'm very grateful!
 

Fuller

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I love those moments when you've spent hours by yourself working on a particular issue then you go back to "let's just see what happens mode" and it comes together for you. One of my best days of skiing last year was like that, I ditched my poles and did nothing but pivot slips and garlands for hours. I stopped for lunch and headed up to the summit and everything was easy and felt natural.

I'm always thinking about reducing my input and effort and still getting the desirable results, especially when conditions get challenging. Why throw your upper body around to start a turn when you can do it all with being in the right position (centered fore and aft) and a little ankle jive?

I also applaud you for seeking instruction early in the game. This year will be the year you can really leverage your effort and reduce your overall learning curve. Many of us (me) have resisted taking lessons and are close to being terminal intermediates. Undoing 15 years of bad habits was pretty frustrating for me and I still have a long way to go.
 

Tony S

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Any video of someone skiing after 12 days on snow is like a kid's first dance recital. If you can at least get around the mountain and there is no lasting physical and emotional trauma from the experience, it is a success. What you can not do is take a video of that recital and ask for choreography improvements to make it a Broadway show. All that is going to happen is that the Ballet people are going to start fighting with the modern dance people and we are going to end up with 12 pages of fighting using terms nobody else understands

OMG, this is just one of the very best posts on PugSki ever. @Corgski, I really hope you are coming to Taos with us in January so I can meet you.
 

Corgski

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I really hope you are coming to Taos with us in January so I can meet you.
Hmm, isn't that where they check that our skiing ability is consistent with what we talk about in our Ski School posts? In that case I am definitely not commenting in the current White Pass turn thread. ;)

Taos is not feasible right now, but I am expecting to be able to go the Killington get together end of March, hope to meet you and some of the others there.
 

Josh Matta

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the counter point to not trying to help a 12 day skier is that in 12 days under proper instruction I have had adults ski liftline and hayride looking like better than many life long skier who had learned or self taught bad habits along the way.
 

Corgski

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the counter point to not trying to help a 12 day skier is that in 12 days under proper instruction I have had adults ski liftline and hayride looking like better than many life long skier who had learned or self taught bad habits along the way.
If responding to my point, I think you misinterpreted the argument. At his 12 day point, certain fundamental skills were lacking, the suggestion was to focus on developing fundamental skills instead of trying to endlessly tweak his current skiing with many small corrections. I don't think this contradicts the stance you took or any of the "rebuilding" discussions of the last couple of years. Would not apply to someone who had better fundamental skills at that point (so yes, I generalized a bit).
 

karlo

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  1. Separation isn't very good, especially as I approach the camera
  2. A little aft/need to close ankles more
  3. I drop the hands back a bit in a few turns
  4. Perhaps rushing the transition a bit?

Wow, pretty good skiing for 12 days of skiing and 2 lessons. And, pretty good self-MA too. You must have had great instructors. I'll read other's posts after writing this.

As instructors, we are trained to focus on just one or two things that will make the most immediate positive impact. For that, I would pick 1 and 2, your top two items.

As for separation, in my mind, there are two components, angulation (or it's opposite, inclination) and rotation. I'd first focus on the rotation. What I see is the upper body rotates with the turn, rather than generally face downhill. I would do some simple drills on shallower terrain. For example, hold poles at each hip, pointing them downhill. As one skis, keep the poles pointed downhill as the legs rotate through each turn. I.e., keep the pelvis facing down the hill.

The second is bit about being a bit aft. Yes, pressing forward on the boot, closing the ankles, is needed. However, think also, perhaps more of raising the pelvis while thrusting it forward. Try this. Stand up from a seated position, but don't just think of standing. Think of bring your pelvis up and forward. Take that thought into your skiing and see if that gets you to a more comfortable stance.

Thanks for sharing this. I am in need of working on my MA skills. Of course, you provided great MA already. But, at least I get to work on possible prescriptions.
 

karlo

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  1. When you flex to release does that your old inside leg stays flexed the same throughout the transition while your old outside retracts, only extending the new outside leg once your skis are just about to get on their new edges? And are you just tipping the new inside or are you consciously tipping both simultaneously? What's the sensation I should be looking for?

When working on flex to release, I go the boundary layer. There, I get the sensation, and the reality, that my upper body and head do not move up and down.

One example would be speed skaters,


Another would be ballroom dancing. Reference the "gliding" parts of the dance.



So, rather than think what the legs are doing, think what one is trying to accomplish with the upper body and head, then your brain will figure out what your legs have to do. However, working on flex to release is not, IMO, something you need to work on at this time.
 

Josh Matta

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please dont tell him to press forward on the boot.....it normally makes people squat, not get more forward. his aftness is being caused by lack of seperation...
 

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