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Noobie MA

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AchtungSki

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So yes you are banking, but its not the separation I am talking about. Your legs should turn more than hips, and your legs should turn before your hips. Right now your hips(+upper body) twist into the turn and you look into the turn, instead of just your legs from the femurs down twisting into the turn

.........

your post indicates to me that you like to feel things this can be an issue sometimes as searching for what feels right, can lead down paths of wrong with out knowing what right is. I would learn this movement and feel how to replicate on the snow. Focus on just turning the outside ski first, the inside ski will fall into place if you do nothing extra.

I see, I am able to replicate that femur rotation movement on dry land standing or sitting in a chair with my legs in the air. I remember being taught to make "bowties" while stationary on flat ground with one ski too. Does this mean I need to be actively supplying that movement through a turn though? So, after initiation to get to your new edges and release your CoM downhill, you steer your feet/skis through the turn with femur rotation? I'm assuming you mean I should only focus on steering the new outside ski.

Watching pro-skiers make short turns it almost looks like the skis are just turning their legs for them, but obviously looks can be deceiving to an untrained eye.

That's a good point about sensations though. I think I'm just mainly looking for a way to self-assess in real time if possible.

@LiquidFeet , thank you for for the detailed responses! That all makes sense to me and is very helpful conceptually.

@Long Hair Hippy , Yes I definitely am hooked! I know where you are talking about though, that's much more approachable as far as doing drills and technique work goes. Excellent ideas about weekday group lessons and Sunday mornings, I have some vacation days to burn yet so that may be my strategy.
 

Josh Matta

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I see, I am able to replicate that femur rotation movement on dry land standing or sitting in a chair with my legs in the air. I remember being taught to make "bowties" while stationary on flat ground with one ski too. Does this mean I need to be actively supplying that movement through a turn though? So, after initiation to get to your new edges and release your CoM downhill, you steer your feet/skis through the turn with femur rotation? I'm assuming you mean I should only focus on steering the new outside ski.

Watching pro-skiers make short turns it almost looks like the skis are just turning their legs for them, but obviously looks can be deceiving to an untrained eye.

That's a good point about sensations though. I think I'm just mainly looking for a way to self-assess in real time if possible.

@LiquidFeet , thank you for for the detailed responses! That all makes sense to me and is very helpful conceptually.

@Long Hair Hippy , Yes I definitely am hooked! I know where you are talking about though, that's much more approachable as far as doing drills and technique work goes. Excellent ideas about weekday group lessons and Sunday mornings, I have some vacation days to burn yet so that may be my strategy.

Can of worms. Your either reading PMTS or very astute at watching good skiers ski.

The thing is yes really good skier especially on short radius sidecut skis and on groomer can make 100 percent of their turns at speed with out actively turning they legs, they are however actively tipping their legs, and active twisting and leveling their pelvis bone against their skis. With that said the legs are twisting freely in the hip socket. The reality for you how ever is those turns you see online from skiers like Reilly, or Paul Lorenz are 100s of days off from being possible. For you, your femur doesnt separate in any direction from your pelvis bone. IMO, an opinion held by many of my PSIA education staff colleagues is that your legs need to be able to twist or rotate freely before any angulation(edging) between the femur and pelvis can happen. There is an entire group of skiers called PMTS that thinks this movement does not happen or should never happen and for the type of skiing they do on groomer they are 100 percent right that the movement is never active, if anything the activity for them(and good skiers from my school) the hips work against the

The thing is the turn you are doing have nothing really to keep working with IE I know your just starting but literally every single thing about the current movement pattern is being done in a physically wrong way. The first thing I would work on is like you said, getting the outside ski to turn in on its own...you may even wedge at first . The deal is the quicker you get that separation to happen the quicker you you can start to get angles. I will say this with one catch, is that ideally you only trying one thing at time(IE the turning of your outside leg) in your case though you going to have to stop pushing down on your outside ski or the first thing isnt going to work.

also speaking of how we feel our skiing. If a new movement doesnt feel awful, and awkward at first you are not actually doing it. At first could be a couple tries or a couple days, but any new movement pattern especially for newer skier will actually feel awkward and you try to replace it. You are currently good at what you do, learning a new movement will feel so different that it will not feel good. This is one of the toughest thing about teaching people its getting them to trust something that feels bad.
 
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Dwight

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You're in Michigan, watch the ski instructors when they free ski, pick the best looking "technical" skier and start a conversation with them. Depending on hill, you might be surprised at the help you will get, just for being nice. :)

Smaller hills should have at least a few people that are good enough to help you progress. Some might be L2 or above, but certification isn't always a goal in the Midwest.
 

LiquidFeet

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....I know your just starting but literally every single thing about the current movement pattern is being done in a physically wrong way. The first thing I would work on is like you said, getting the outside ski to turn in on its own...you may even wedge at first . The deal is the quicker you get that separation to happen the quicker you you can start to get angles. I will say this with one catch, is that ideally you only trying one thing at time (IE the turning of your outside leg) in your case though you going to have to stop pushing down on your outside ski or the first thing isnt going to work.....You are currently good at what you do, learning a new movement will feel so different that it will not feel good. This is one of the toughest thing about teaching people its getting them to trust something that feels bad.

@AchtungSki, Josh knows what he's talking about, but he's sometimes harsh. I hope your ego is as strong as you say it is ogwink. I agree with him that the movements I pointed out in that long post upthread, the one with the pictures, all need to be replaced. I agree with Josh that you need to stop pushing down or away on that new outside ski by lengthening that leg as you do. Pay special attention to that last part of his post; doing new movements will feel wrong; your turns will feel worse at first. That's a sign you are doing something different, which is good.

But I'm not sure about the rest of what Josh is suggesting you do with that new outside ski.

@Josh Matta?? You say he needs to get the outside ski to turn in "on its own." You bring up a wedge entry and say that might be OK at first. And you focus on femur rotation in the hip socket. Josh, are you really saying he should manually use his muscles to rotate the new outside ski to point more down the hill between turns (using femur rotation), forming a wedge at turn entry, on purpose? That doesn't sound like the ski is turning "on its own." I don't think you mean this.

Josh, would you mind clarifying how you would get achtung to get that ski to turn "on its own"?

I too want that new outside ski to "turn on its own." My go-to solution is to do stuff intentionally with the new inside ski/foot/leg, involving muscle action, because doing so will cause the new outside ski/foot/leg to do the right stuff, including turning to point downhill, without intentional muscular action. Focusing on the new inside stuff will eliminate the need for intentional muscular action happening with the outside leg, and will block that current movement pattern achtung is doing. Working to keep the upper body still, from the hips up through shoulders, so that it doesn't turn as the skis turn, so that it will face more downhill as the skis come around, will cause the new outside femur to rotate in the hip socket passively.


Josh may have a different way of making that passive femur rotation happen. Or, and I can't believe this is what he means, he may want you to manually rotate that new outside ski with muscle power. I bet he'll come back to clarify.
 
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Josh Matta

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@LiquidFeet while I am huge proponent of skiing in way that you get the ski to turn you...but first you have to learn to separate that femur from your pelvis. turning that outside leg in is the way I get people to feel it. Yes it may form a wedge, yes its not starting with the inside but the that internal rotation of that outside leg is one of the steps that actually gets people to master upper and lower body separation, not just rotationally but also laterally.

This doesnt happen on it own at this stage and even are a higher level its not always on it on(even though it may feel like its passive all the time, perception and reality as so often not the same thing).

The thing is your advice and all the advice in this thread IMO is nt bad advice, its all stuff that the OP will have to work on eventually, but the underlying issue with his skiing is the lack or rotational separation. Please do not take my word for gospel though, the only people I want to do that are my skiing students.

this Ma thread is getting to my overall philosophy on skiing. "we turn our legs(or let our legs be turned) to let the turn bring us into balance forward on our outside ski" Sue if you can get out on snow go find some mellow terrain easy green and go turn you outside ski in and do nothing else..see what happens. My guess for you is will be the best wedge christy you have ever done, with that said what your going to do while you do that task, is vastly different than what @AchtungSki is going to do with that task due to vast difference in skill level. The thing is so many people over think these things. My generally theme of every post in this thread has been turn the outside leg to get separation to happen between femur and pelvis. This arguably the most important movement in skiing, no sense for skier to become more capable with out being able to do this.
 

LiquidFeet

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Josh, you want the pivot point under that new outside foot to be the arch, not some point along the front of the skis, right?
 

Josh Matta

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yes.
 

LiquidFeet

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@Josh Matta, have you ever taught people to rotate the new inside foot to point that ski downhill instead?
That's the same femur rotation, but it's on the inside half of the body instead of outside half.
If you've tried this, do you find it doesn't work as well? Why do you prefer the outside half?

If you haven't tried teaching with a focus on the inside half, you need to know good results, similar to yours I think, are possible. I like getting people to focus on the inside half, even though the pressure is carried by the outside half. That inside focus helps when it's time to get high angles. They won't be focused on rolling that outside knee down, which has its anatomical problems, but instead on getting that inside knee up to the chest.
 
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AchtungSki

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Can of worms. Your either reading PMTS or very astute at watching good skiers ski.

I've heard of Harald Harb and PMTS, I do not know too much beyond watching a video or two on his "phantom move" thing or whatever it is. I wasn't aware that was a controversial phrase, it was just my honest impression that it seems that the legs of SL skiers especially just swing back and forth effortlessly like the skis push them around.

The thing is yes really good skier especially on short radius sidecut skis and on groomer can make 100 percent of their turns at speed with out actively turning they legs, they are however actively tipping their legs, and active twisting and leveling their pelvis bone against their skis. With that said the legs are twisting freely in the hip socket......For you, your femur doesnt separate in any direction from your pelvis bone. IMO, an opinion held by many of my PSIA education staff colleagues is that your legs need to be able to twist or rotate freely before any angulation(edging) between the femur and pelvis can happen......

Ok, so outside of a pure carved turn you are providing some active rotational steering input. However, in that carved turn separation is still being achieved by keeping the pelvis pointed downhill and relying only on the sidecut of the skis to turn which necessarily means that the femurs are being passively rotated by the motion of the skis. And my problem is that my femurs aren't rotating much if at all, basically I have them locked into place, so my whole body is moving as a rigid unit with the skis. Have I got that right?

........also speaking of how we feel our skiing. If a new movement doesnt feel awful, and awkward at first you are not actually doing it. At first could be a couple tries or a couple days, but any new movement pattern especially for newer skier will actually feel awkward and you try to replace it. You are currently good at what you do, learning a new movement will feel so different that it will not feel good. This is one of the toughest thing about teaching people its getting them to trust something that feels bad.

That's a good thought to keep in mind!

@AchtungSki, Josh knows what he's talking about, but he's sometimes harsh. I hope your ego is as strong as you say it is ogwink.

My ego is still intact lol, I believe and appreciate you folks for helping.


......

I too want that new outside ski to "turn on its own." My go-to solution is to do stuff intentionally with the new inside ski/foot/leg, involving muscle action, because doing so will cause the new outside ski/foot/leg to do the right stuff, including turning to point downhill, without intentional muscular action. Focusing on the new inside stuff will eliminate the need for intentional muscular action happening with the outside leg, and will block that current movement pattern achtung is doing. Working to keep the upper body still, from the hips up through shoulders, so that it doesn't turn as the skis turn, so that it will face more downhill as the skis come around, will cause the new outside femur to rotate in the hip socket passively.

So just so I understand, keep the new outside leg as passive as possible and actively turn the new inside ski only as much as it takes to match what the outside ski is doing passively. Or can you actually control the radius of the turn by how much you turn the inside femur and the outside matches naturally?

Obviously there's some difference of opinion as to which leg to focus on, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding one thing in general. This intentional leg steering has to happen after initiation and the bases are flat/getting on the new edges correct? So whether I'm extending or flexing to release that has to happen first right?
 

Josh Matta

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How about this let just say neither is wrong. Go try both and get it in video. What works best for you is what will work best.
 

LiquidFeet

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Obviously there's some difference of opinion as to which leg to focus on, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding one thing in general. This intentional leg steering has to happen after initiation and the bases are flat/getting on the new edges correct? So whether I'm extending or flexing to release that has to happen first right?
People disagree about this too.

If you muscularly rotate one or two skis at initiation, as you enter the turn, when your skis are not yet on their new downhill edges, you'll get a skidded top half of the turn. There are many good reasons to intentionally do this. Very good skiers, racers, can get the skis to carve after starting the turn this way, but most recreational skiers can't.

If you don't muscularly rotate the skis as you enter the turn, if you get them tipped onto their new downhill edges as you continue to travel towards the trees at the side of the trail, and if you balance just so over the skis, your skis can carve two pencil-thin lines at the top of the turn. Without the balance thing working, the skis will still skid through the top half.

How you handle the skis at the bottom half of a turn that started with two pencil-thin tracks is another thing. You can bring your skis back up under you edged and tracking if you like, until the skis are above your center of mass and the new turn starts as a result. This too is something most recreational skiers don't do.

Pure carved turns are fast. Avoiding other people on the trail is an issue. As a beginner, you would be wise to learn to make good quality skidded turns which offer so much more control over your speed. Consider versatility and being able to do everything people disagree about as a goal and you'll go far in your skiing.

Given your video, you have a bunch of things to rewire before getting into some of this stuff, but I have no doubt you'll get there. First things first, grasshopper.
 
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KingGrump

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Looks like the OP is picking up pretty well on the technical discussion. Will probably kill it next time he is out on the hill.
 

Corgski

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I have fewer skiing years behind me than probably everyone else here, but I'll share what I found to be useful in managing my own progression (taking lessons can be part of managing one's own progression). This should not really contradict anything else discussed here, this is just my experience tested by me, no warranty expressed or implied.

Any video of someone skiing after 12 days on snow is like a kid's first dance recital. If you can at least get around the mountain and there is no lasting physical and emotional trauma from the experience, it is a success. What you can not do is take a video of that recital and ask for choreography improvements to make it a Broadway show. All that is going to happen is that the Ballet people are going to start fighting with the modern dance people and we are going to end up with 12 pages of fighting using terms nobody else understands (it happens a lot here). Everything you were taught was affected by the fact that beginners do not have the fundamental skills to really do what you would like them to do. Move on, don't try to fix your existing turn, focus on more fundamental skills and then you can choreograph your own turns. Seeing the correct turn can vary throughout a run, you need to be able to do this. Use the video for comparison at the end of the season, for now put it behind you.

Understand that carving (ski turns you) and rotation/steering (you turn the skis) are competing ways to turn. While carving is often considered the ideal (plan A), the reality is that due to skill level, snow conditions, the slope or your skis (some are turnier than others) it may not give you the amount of turn you need. Rotational movements come in as a very essential Plan B. Based on where you live, carving is going to be more important. You still have to know how to do it all.

Learning the stuff shown in Josh's video within the first 10 days of my skiing was immensely helpful (not that I was doing it on particular serious slopes). Helped me to learn the basics of edging, separation, rotation, controlling skis in general. Also got me down some stuff beyond my ability when my kids wanted me to ski with them. Not that you will necessarily ski much like that but it forces the development of basic skills. Next time on snow, do that (personally I would hold off on the jumping bit).

Carving basics you can start at home (this can be hard on the knees, don't hurt yourself here). Stand on a carpet with your skis on, rest your hands on your hips, practice tipping your feet to the left and right. The hands on hips is not essential, really just a proprioceptive aid to limit bending at the waist. Once you have practiced this a bit with some decent angles, when tipping say left, focus on lightening the left foot so most your weight ends up on the right foot. To test, lift up your left foot (this is a check on balance, no need to do this bit on snow). The only job of your upper body in this exercise is to do the absolute minimum not to fall over, in this case some degree of counterbalancing, hinging at the hips. The lack of dynamic forces means that you actually have to exaggerate the counter to stay in balance, you can dial it back on real turns. Observe what you are doing with your body, the ski's edges interaction with the carpet, think through what would be different in the presence of dynamic forces. Next time on snow try it out on an easy slope. You should be able to get some turn out of it, probably not enough initially so that is where Plan B comes in.

Some people like the "phantom" move as a starting point to develop carving skills, others not. All good skiers can do it anyway so try it and form your own opinion.

Finally lose the poles for now, make sure you know how to skate. When skating, emphasize putting the ski down outside edge first.

A lot of stuff obviously not covered, but once you have at least some of that down, you should have some degree of versatility in your turns.
 
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Tricia

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Living in northern California, I never thought I'd be jealous of Michigan skiers! But here we are, dry and warm.
My family members back in Michigan have been sending me pictures of snow. I'm jealous!
 

AmyPJ

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So, @AchtungSki, what SE MI resort is your closest? I may know an instructor or two.
Take @Kneale Brownson up on this. There is no comparison to getting quality on-hill instruction. It's really easy to get your head so full of differing ideas and opinions that it will become confusing and overwhelming. I'm speaking from experience. I'm married to an L3 instructor--we've been together for almost 3 years now, so I have not enjoyed his expertise for very long. His fellow instructors were always happy to throw out advice to me, until last season. Pretty soon, I was so confused that it was detrimental. I'd get online advice and be MORE confused. I had so many things I "needed" to work on that I became a master of none. Last season, he told me to stop listening to everybody and he also told everybody to stop trying to coach me. Now, I know who I will accept help from (one of them is an active poster on here who is a prior examiner--he helps me immensely.) The other I accept help from is my husband, but only when I'm in a "receive advice" mode :P If I'm struggling in certain snow conditions or terrain, he'll throw out a quick tip. Other times, if the snow is amazing and I just want to play, I tell him to zip it just let me ski. :D

I'll throw in a caveat here--I learn by doing. So even instructional videos offer minimal help. I do like the video Josh posted. Why? Because it focuses on ONE thing.
 

Mike King

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Let's keep it simple: as @Josh Matta said, the first thing to do is to get appropriate upper/lower body separation. Learning how to turn the legs under a stable upper body is a challenging task as it is not something that is common to other sports. You can do some dryland training for it. Use something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Sportz...ocphy=9028728&hvtargid=pla-381214536878&psc=1

Or in the alternative, a couple of paper plates. Stand on a smooth surface like a hardwood floor in front of a mirror. Turn your legs to the right and left WITHOUT moving your pelvis. That's the move you need to learn.

Mike
 
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AchtungSki

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@KingGrump I hope so! If I'm not too top heavy to balance from all this new knowledge though lol

@Kneale Brownson That would be amazing, getting hooked up with someone known to be a quality instructor consistently would be undoubtedly a great help and I'd really appreciate it. Really all the SE MI hills are pretty much equidistant to me. Mt Brighton, Alpine valley, and Pine Knob are all 45-50 minutes ish from me. Mt Holly is farther but only another 10 minutes or so. So really wherever their home mountains are it doesn't make a huge difference.

@Mike King I have these Skia ski trainer things I use at home with my boots and I can do it on those without moving my pelvis as far as I can tell and seems like the same principle. I should say that I am able to hockey stop both directions relatively consistently using the method in this video .

I have a harder time pivoting while continuing to move more or less straight down the hill.

Just want to take a moment to say though that I'm honestly not trying to stir the pot here, I was unaware that some of my words or phrases are loaded/controversial and tread on ideological schisms which I apologize for. I've been reading this forum (and made a couple comments), youtube videos, skiing technique articles, etc a bunch since last season. I'm a pretty nerdy, technical, research oriented person who loves understanding how things work. Only trying to speak you guys' language as best as possible since it seems to be the most concise way of understanding over the internet. I am far from an expert. Probably also am analyzing things to death, which I'm prone to do, and need to discuss less and ski more. Thank you to everyone for providing such detailed technical responses (and non-technical nuggets of wisdom of course) though, it's definitely helping my conceptual understanding and I find it all quite fascinating.
 

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