New Zealand Advanced Training takeaways, 2019

[geepers]

@mike_m - very good of you to post these write-ups. I refer back to them at intervals - must see if I can stretch to an NZ trip for Rookies one year.

Just saw this vid on a couple of Seb Michel pointers at Rookies. Are these some of the items you covered and do you appear anywhere in the vid?

 

[Steve]

@geepers thanks for that, I like that progression. People usually start with the second drill, but with the goal of increasing edge angle, starting with the first drill is a great approach.

 

[JESinstr]

Great stuff! Key to note that the first drill involved release via retraction and the second drill involved moving to the new outside ski using ILE and that is because the drill requires end to end commitment to the new outside ski. Just like the "Get over it drill". This is why I believe that if you can execute the "Get over it drill" or the version shown in the above video, everything from there is downhill.....excuse the pun.

 

[geepers]

Key to note that the first drill involved release via retraction

?

I see a flex of the old outside leg and a simultaneous extension of the new outside leg standing tall at transition.

 

[JESinstr]

?

I see a flex of the old outside leg and a simultaneous extension of the new outside leg standing tall at transition.

Geepers,
I think you might be confusing release vs initiation. Check out @1:19 in your vid.

But that issue aside, standing tall does not mean the skier is "Getting over it". Don't get me wrong, I am just advocating that being able to execute the "Get over it" drill demonstrates the skier's ability to perform a pure end to end redirection using the design of the ski. Accomplished and highly skilled skiers are free to enter the turn cycle at various points employing rotary and different angulation techniques.

By definition, linked turns alternate between the force of Gravity and Centripetal force. The first drill (above) seeks to quickly pass through the gravity phase while the second drill and the "Get over it drill" seeks to develop edge angles while in the Gravity phase which is where the majority of skiers seek to begin their turns.

 

[geepers]

Geepers,
I think you might be confusing release vs initiation. Check out @1:19 in your vid.

But that issue aside, standing tall does not mean the skier is "Getting over it". Don't get me wrong, I am just advocating that being able to execute the "Get over it" drill demonstrates the skier's ability to perform a pure end to end redirection using the design of the ski. Accomplished and highly skilled skiers are free to enter the turn cycle at various points employing rotary and different angulation techniques.

By definition, linked turns alternate between the force of Gravity and Centripetal force. The first drill (above) seeks to quickly pass through the gravity phase while the second drill and the "Get over it drill" seeks to develop edge angles while in the Gravity phase which is where the majority of skiers seek to begin their turns.

Probably.

Just focusing on the 1st drill...
May help to have a description of "release via retraction". Why is it important to the drill?

 

[Mike King]

Geepers,
I think you might be confusing release vs initiation. Check out @1:19 in your vid.

But that issue aside, standing tall does not mean the skier is "Getting over it". Don't get me wrong, I am just advocating that being able to execute the "Get over it" drill demonstrates the skier's ability to perform a pure end to end redirection using the design of the ski. Accomplished and highly skilled skiers are free to enter the turn cycle at various points employing rotary and different angulation techniques.

By definition, linked turns alternate between the force of Gravity and Centripetal force. The first drill (above) seeks to quickly pass through the gravity phase while the second drill and the "Get over it drill" seeks to develop edge angles while in the Gravity phase which is where the majority of skiers seek to begin their turns.

@JESinstr, I don't understand what you are asserting is the biomechanical outcome of the Get Over It drill. Might you elaborate?

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, I don't understand what you are asserting is the biomechanical outcome of the Get Over It drill. Might you elaborate?

Sure Mike. There are multiple outcomes IMO.

Hopefully you will agree that when strapped to the boards, you are attempting to balance either with gravity or centripetal force and at many times, both. One force is ever present, the other is generated by the skier either intentionally or unintentionally.

The "Get Over It" drill includes a period of straight run between turns. It is during this time period that the skier needs to achieving the outcome of a gravitational "sweet spot" for balance with the new outside ski. Once that outcome is achieved, progress toward the next outcome of maintaining that "sweet spot" while developing and building a continuum of centripetal force through the patient and smooth creation of edge angles starting with the ankles and working up the kinetic chain.

Don't know if that addresses you question or not but hopefully it does.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Don't know if that addresses you question or not but hopefully it does.

If it does I’d appreciate a translation in simple English because I really don’t know what he’s talking about. If his point is that at the top of the turn the force due to gravity is predominant because there’s relatively little centripetal force, and that this is reversed in the belly of the turn, then I agree, but it’s a self-evident observation.

 

[mike_m]

Perhaps the simplest explanation is that the "Get Over It Drill" allows the skier to shift all his/her weight to the new outside ski, all the way over to the uphill edge, then balance on it. The ski then flattens and starts downhill on its own before the skier adds active turning forces, including the dramatic inclination shown in Seb's video.

Best!
Mike

 

[Mike King]

I agree with @HardDaysNight -- so far your comments are word salad.

It appears you are a real fan of the Get Over It Drill. What I see that might be beneficial from the drill is to eliminate a pivot at edge change -- with no fulcrum, rotation is not going factor into the execution of the drill. But because it is done from a quite extended position, it is also less likely to allow lower leg tipping as femur rotation is limited in an extended position, with the result that most of the edge creation is going to come from inclination with less ability to generate angulation.

So, in my book, this is a drill that I don't see a tremendous amount of use for. I'd rather use Stork Turns, where there is more flexion in the ankle, knee, and hip, to do two things: direct pressure to the outside ski and learn to transfer the weight before edge change. This will allow creating a platform high in the turn to accept pressure coming predominantly from centripetal force, allow the ski to bend, and to be able to redirect the motion of the center of mass as the push from gravity begins to complement centripetal force.

The loss of the ability to access rotation of the femurs from an extended position is a large part of the reason that PSIA-RM is discouraging inside leg extension to change edges. It is also slower (for most mortals, Brignone is an exception).

 

[JESinstr]

If it does I’d appreciate a translation in simple English because I really don’t know what he’s talking about. If his point is that at the top of the turn the force due to gravity is predominant because there’s relatively little centripetal force, and that this is reversed in the belly of the turn, then I agree, but it’s a self-evident observation.

Don't mean to be rude but if this is coming from a racer mentality, I can understand that analysis.....

The force at the top of the turn is there whether you like it or not and whether or not you're a racer or beginner. Everyone has to deal with it.

The reversal force peeking in the belly of the turn however, needs to be created by the skier. This has to be learned and that learning is not intuitive. For the untrained, the turn building movement patterns are bias toward one's survival instincts and the resultant heel thrusting, rotary redirection and bracing actions they induce.

 

[JESinstr]

I agree with @HardDaysNight -- so far your comments are word salad.

It appears you are a real fan of the Get Over It Drill. What I see that might be beneficial from the drill is to eliminate a pivot at edge change -- with no fulcrum, rotation is not going factor into the execution of the drill. But because it is done from a quite extended position, it is also less likely to allow lower leg tipping as femur rotation is limited in an extended position, with the result that most of the edge creation is going to come from inclination with less ability to generate angulation.

So, in my book, this is a drill that I don't see a tremendous amount of use for. I'd rather use Stork Turns, where there is more flexion in the ankle, knee, and hip, to do two things: direct pressure to the outside ski and learn to transfer the weight before edge change. This will allow creating a platform high in the turn to accept pressure coming predominantly from centripetal force, allow the ski to bend, and to be able to redirect the motion of the center of mass as the push from gravity begins to complement centripetal force.

The loss of the ability to access rotation of the femurs from an extended position is a large part of the reason that PSIA-RM is discouraging inside leg extension to change edges. It is also slower (for most mortals, Brignone is an exception).

Mike,
I understand the points you are trying to make. However if you watch the video, the old inside leg extends to a "strong position" new outside leg and remains pretty much that way throughout the carving process. Angulation is led by the inside foot and movement to the inside at the hip. Although in the air, notice the intentional angle building movement of the inside foot and lower leg.

If you look at the demoer at :42 into the video, she begins her roll on to her new edges from a traverse. Can't get much higher in the turn than that!

As you alluded to, this is an end to end carving exercise based on commitment to the outside ski and that's all. Pivot initiation and the rotary requirements for that are not needed for this type of turn.

You don't need to teach students to pivot. You do need to teach students to pivot properly and you do need to teach students the process of carving a ski.

Skiing is not a one size fits all sport. I am surprised RM is trying to limit diversity in ski technique. It is slower but I didn't know this was a racing forum.

Perhaps the simplest explanation is that the "Get Over It Drill" allows the skier to shift all his/her weight to the new outside ski, all the way over to the uphill edge, then balance on it. The ski then flattens and starts downhill on its own before the skier adds active turning forces, including the dramatic inclination shown in Seb's video.

Best!
Mike

Agreed, Skiing has many facets and variety of skill implementations.

 

[Chris V.]

The loss of the ability to access rotation of the femurs from an extended position is a large part of the reason that PSIA-RM is discouraging inside leg extension to change edges.

Interesting. How long until the other divisions catch up?

 

[JESinstr]

The loss of the ability to access rotation of the femurs from an extended position is a large part of the reason that PSIA-RM is discouraging inside leg extension to change edges. It is also slower (for most mortals, Brignone is an exception).

Interesting. How long until the other divisions catch up?

As long as it takes to catch up with this guy.

 

[Mike King]

That guy is still trying to catch up with this guy.

 

[JESinstr]

Mike, So are you advocating we should all be using a stivoting approach to recreational skiing?

Anyway here is someone who uses both ILE and retraction and I think she does ok.

.

 

[Mike King]

Nope, but there were a fair number of turns in there that were not stivots, but were pure carved turns. There is only 1 turn out of the video of Mikeala that is an ILE BTW, none of the turns are retraction turns, they are flex to release.

It's a biomechanical fact that a lack of flexion in the hip results in greatly diminished ability to access rotation of the femurs. When in a position with flexion in the hip, knee, and dorsiflexion in the ankle, femur rotation is predominantly translated into tipping of the lower leg. When in an extended position, femur rotation has almost no effect on lower leg tipping, but instead predominantly translates to a rotary force on the skis. Initiating a turn from such an extended position leads to inclination first with angulation coming from the hip, rather than from bottom of the chain up. Why do we want to teach a technique that may lead to detrimental outcomes? Certainly, there is a time and a place for focusing on inclination, which is what I see as a focus of the get over it drill. But it seems to me that the population of students where it is appropriate is pretty limited.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

Another opportunity for my favorite video.

 

[James]

That guy is still trying to catch up with this guy.

Well he's racing motorcycles now, so it's moot.
Ligety's been mostly out of the podium since his injuries several years ago. Maybe the back, maybe the acl, no idea. I suspect the back was more the limiting factor in the last few seasons.

Seb Michel's outside leg is lengthining in those early turns on the video above. Fwiw. But since he's not pivoting massively, femur rotation at that point isn't a huge deal I guess.

Seems to me a lot of "flex to release" turns are more flex to get the inside ski out of the way. The release is coming from the path of the skis and body overlapping.