New to tuning my edges & having a weird edge issue

Discussion in 'Tuning Techniques and Tool Information' started by Klik, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. Klik

    Klik At the base lodge Skier

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Posts:
    8
    Location:
    New England
    Hi folks! I've been reading these forums for a couple seasons & finally decided I need to make an account.


    I've recently started tuning my own edges & I've run into an issue someone here might be able to diagnose. It's somewhat hard to describe, but I'll give it a shot. I started with my older pair of skis, figuring they could really use the love & if I messed up, it wasn't a big deal. When I would make any sort of turn after I tuned the edges, the skis would just start bouncing/skidding over the snow. It felt like how I imagine riding the ABS brakes in my car across an ice rink would feel. I basically turned my skis into the most chattery skis I've ever been on, but worse. For a run or two, I thought it was my technique, but I took some really slow, gradual turns & it was still terrible. The edges would rapidly bite and release. It's sounds similar to what I read in this thread https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-is-going-on-with-these-kendos.13360/


    A grind, tune & wax from the shop 100% fixed the skis, so I figured I did something wrong with my tune & needed to do some more research before I tried again. I had my other pair of skis ground flat & started the tune from there. I took them out, and, for a run or two, I thought the chatter was just because I was using a pretty fat (105mm) & heavily rockered ski on a day that didn't really call for it. Then I remembered how the first ski felt after I tuned it myself. I took another run super slow with very gentle, gradual turns & the issue was still significant.


    I can think of a handful of likely causes for this issue:

    1. Burrs I didn't manage to remove - I don't think so because I did go along the edges with the files/stones to remove burrs as videos on tuning show, but it's still #1 because it's what was mentioned in the thread I linked above
    2. Not removing any sidewall and thereby causing the side edge to be wonky - I didn't get the sense the sidewall was preventing my work, as the file took metal off the full width of the side edge
    3. My tuning tool - I've been using the SKS multi-tool file guide from racewax (https://www.racewax.com/base-side-bevel-file-guide-sks-multi-tool-5-dmt-diamond-stones-with-file/) & I've read about how unreliable the multi-tools can be
    4. My ski base is slightly concave - even after a fresh grind, the bases of both pairs of skis are still VERY SLIGHTLY concave. This would slightly affect the angle my tuning tool would create (specifically, it would lessen the angles, so, instead of 1 & 2 degrees, it might be .75 and 1.75 or something)
    5. My tuning technique - I'm new to this so obviously there could be something in how I'm going about the tuning the causes the problem

    I'm going to describe how I tuned the skis (after being ground flat) so someone can hopefully figure out where I'm going wrong.

    • I set the tool to 1 degree for the base & 2 degrees for the side (same edge angles the manufacturer shipped the skis with)
    • I started with the metal file and progressed through the diamond stones (using a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture) going from coarse to fine
    • I did the base edges before the side edges (I went metal file base > metal file side > coarse stone base > coarse stone side etc.)
    • I worked in only the tip to tail direction
    • for each file/stone I would do three progressions down along the ski, pulling the tool toward me in short, overlapping strokes & doing my best to maintain consistent, moderate pressure, keeping the longer part of the tool flat along the base and the short part flat along the side edge & sidewall
    • I checked & cleaned the file/stones frequently with a brass brush
     
  2. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Meh Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    6,994
    My thoughts:

    1. Remanent burr. Yes, I know you tried to remove it.

    2. Your base bevel is too low - you haven't achieved consistent base bevel at 1 degree (or whatever you are looking for) from tip to tail.
     
    Klik and Sibhusky like this.
  3. WheatKing

    WheatKing Ice coast carveaholic Skier

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    238
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    black marker on the edges will be your friend.. ink them up and then run a single pass over them with your tool.. any black remaining will be where your inconsistencies are. give them more attention and then do it again until you remove all the ink in a single pass.

    sounds like inconsistent angles along the edge.. burrs are grabby and you can feel the drag.. but generally won't cause chatter unless they're severe.
     
    Klik and cantunamunch like this.
  4. Scrundy

    Scrundy I like beer Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    298
    Location:
    Conklin NY
    I suspect the base grind at least I’ve run into the same issue on a pair this year. The grind was just to deep, I could feel it with my finger nail. If the shop didn’t dress the stone recently you can get a crap grind. Mine looked fine when I picked up from shop but once I wax um up it was ugly, especially down the middle. Rendered them almost unskiable. Acting the same way as you explained above. I took them to a shop that had a Montana and fixed me right up. Problem with a shop without a Montana is you need a very skilled person basically free handing.
     
  5. Thread Starter
    TS
    Klik

    Klik At the base lodge Skier

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Posts:
    8
    Location:
    New England
    Based on what you two have said, I'm going to ink up every bit of metal edge on both skis (I assume a sharpie is good for this?), give the ink some time to dry, and then do a single long pass with my file. Hopefully I'll find out there are inconsistencies with my edges that I can fix & the issue will go away. I'm a little scared I'll take too much edge off by hitting them again, but, the skis are still slightly concave (edge high), so taking the edges down more isn't the worst thing in the world.

    Thanks for the tip - I'll definitely keep it in mind if this issue crops up again - but I'm pretty confident that the grind isn't the issue this time. It's not deep enough to feel with my fingernail, and it's the same grind from the same guy from my other set of skis (the ones that are back to 100% - tbh, they feel better than they ever have. I'm thrilled with what that guy did to my old skis I thought were about done. I just didn't have him finish the other pair because I want to learn to tune edges myself)
     


  6. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Meh Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    6,994
    If you're scared, load up the diamond for the 'test' pass and run it dry (no alcohol) so that the alcohol doesn't take the Sharpie off.
     
    Klik likes this.
  7. Atomicman

    Atomicman Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Posts:
    243
    It is a hanging burr. Wwhen you sharpen your side edge a burr is created that hangs down past the base and goes straight into the snow. This is not the burr you were contemplating when running your stones. All you did is make it worse when you further stoned the side edge. Particularly if you did the side edge last.

    To fix, run a hardstone.....arkansas, surgical, NOT A GUMMI.....flat against the base metal from tip to tail. It is best to do this side edge up base away from you in a vise. Just do it free hand. Place the stone flat against the base edge and run it the length of the edge. This should be the last thing you do ANYTIME you diamond stone or file your side edges.
     
    James, Sibhusky and Klik like this.
  8. BC.

    BC. NEPA ShopRat/Skier Skier

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Posts:
    571
    Location:
    Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
    Did u take them to Guenthers.......on your way home from Elk?......Scott’s Montana is an awesome machine.....I only do my own work....or take to him...:micdrop:
     
    Scrundy likes this.
  9. Thread Starter
    TS
    Klik

    Klik At the base lodge Skier

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Posts:
    8
    Location:
    New England
    Well I've got an update. I went over the edges by hand (first over the side, then over the base with a low-pressure full-length stroke) with a stone & then finished with one ZERO pressure stroke with a blue gummi at 45 degrees, and took the skis out. The issue pretty much disappeared. I thought I'd gone over the burrs well enough before, but obviously I was wrong.

    Tbh, I'm pretty impressed with how well this 105mm ski with a good bit of rocker did on some groomed hardpack today (it was pretty well groomed, so I'm sure that helped). The edges didn't quite feel like my front-side skis, but it was a lot closer than I expected. With decent skier input, they carve very well. They were also perfectly happy doing some quick/short skidded mogul-type turns (at least, as happy as I could imagine a 105mm ski being) - I could skid a turn without feeling like I was on ABS brakes on ice like last time. I also did some edging drills (the side-sliding & stopping one and the jumping & landing stopped on the edge one) and the skis did great (I had some trouble, but it was me, not the ski). I think I still prefer doing edging drills on my front side skis, but that's not a surprise. This ski isn't exactly meant for how I used it today.

    I did try to recreate the issue, and I found I can still make the ski jump/chatter if I really try (by using a very torsional turn & sitting in the back seat) but I'd love to see the ski that lets you ski like that without chatter.

    Issue resolved?
     
  10. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Meh Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    6,994
    Sounds like it.
     
  11. Scrundy

    Scrundy I like beer Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    298
    Location:
    Conklin NY
    Sure did,very happy with outcome. They have helped me out a couple of times, they really seem to know their shit .
    I would refer people to them without hesitation, my go too now for sure
     
    BC. likes this.
  12. BC.

    BC. NEPA ShopRat/Skier Skier

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Posts:
    571
    Location:
    Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
    Scott is the best in NEPA.....I work at another shop(closer to home).....and I still refer friends and family to him.....He is incredibly knowledgeable and does a ton for local families in the area. He is also a Wallenpaupack guy....:D
     
    Scrundy likes this.
  13. James

    James Skiing the powder Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Posts:
    6,313
    Maybe file for a band name?
     
    Eleeski likes this.
  14. Atomicman

    Atomicman Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Posts:
    243
    Good to hear! Now put a 3 degree side edge on 'em and you will be further impressed..............................
     
    Sibhusky likes this.

Share This Page


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice