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New to skiing, top 5 tips/things to learn for a noob? any guides???

LindseyB

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Jan 14, 2019
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402
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SLC
1-The right boot is your best friend, the wrong boot is your worst enemy
2-All great skiers have one thing in common, they are forward in their boots
3-Never underestimate the importance of pole plants
4-Pull your heels back between turns
5-Turning starts from the feet up (very few understand this)
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
1-The right boot is your best friend, the wrong boot is your worst enemy
2-All great skiers have one thing in common, they are forward in their boots
3-Never underestimate the importance of pole plants
4-Pull your heels back between turns
5-Turning starts from the feet up (very few understand this)

#2 above DOES NOT mean your heel is lifted/lightened inside the boot in order to get extra weight on the ball-of-the-foot. That is not good idea. Keep weight on the whole foot, with the heel firmly seated against the floor of the boot.

What #2 does means is to close your ankle (dorsiflex your ankles) to get your lower leg to tilt forward. This creates constant contact between the shin and the boot's tongue. People say "shin-tongue" as a mantra when they are learning to stand this way in their boots. This is what "forward in your boots" means. It simply means keeping shins tilted forward so they TOUCH the boot tongues. There is no need to try to FLEX the boot cuffs forward.

Like this:
1579871699247.png

1579871760620.png
1579872044236.png

NOT like this:
1579872000929.png

1579872096407.png
 
Last edited:

slowrider

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Dec 17, 2015
Posts
4,534
It shouldn't be hard to believe. Some drills are harder to do on slower terrain than on steeper. When I first learned the Whitepass turn, I was taught in on a beginner slope. It taught me how the difficulty level increases significantly when you don't have momentum behind you and slope angle to propel you. But the easy slope makes you really dial into proper movement patterns.
Good morning, it was a joke.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
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As almost every post notes, get a lesson. However, if you can find an all-day lesson, it will get you much farther along than a 60- or 90-minute lesson.
 

scott43

So much better than a pro
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13,552
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To echo what Lindsey said..the "Oh shit!" handles are in front of you..lean forward to grab them. Nothing good ever happens when leaning back..
 

cosmoliu

Making fresh tracks
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Dec 6, 2015
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Central CA Coast
Take MANY lessons. I got hooked from my first bunny hill day and realized early on that I REALLY wanted to get good at this sport as quickly and efficiently as possible. I’d say that of my first 50 days on skis I probably took 40 lessons. Granted, I started later in life, when the cost of lessons was less onerous than when I was on a college budget. Also, it seems that 30 years ago, ski school was more like a service to the learning public than a profit center for resort management as compared to today. But do what you can to get as much professional instruction as possible early on. Learning good habits in the first place is MUCH easier than having to break ingrained bad habits. There are many movement patterns needed to achieve expert level skills which simply are not intuitive.
 

vindibona1

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Good morning, it was a joke.

I can see how it might have been a joke. But it could also be taken quite seriously. I have memories of falling on my can numerous times as I attempted to learn the Whitepass turn on the beginner slope :)....

... But as an aside, learning that Whitepass turn changed my perspective on ski mechanics and technique like nothing else has (or probably will). Just sayin'.
 

vindibona1

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I came across the following "article" that I'd written 9 years ago and just thought it might be appropriate to share it. It might be worth something to someone. Maybe not.... But here it is. I tried to get the photos in the illustration to upload directly to this post, but the forum wouldn't upload it, so I've included links to where they are in GogglePhotos. Sorry for the inconvenience. P.S. Forgive my reference to "Power Point". It has nothing to do with Microsoft and I should probably re-name it at some point :).

You can agree or disagree. Feel free to critique it. I'm prepared to defend the logic behind it, but I'm always looking to expand my knowledge and explore other points of view. Just for the record, none of what I write or say is "the final word". It's just how I approach skiing. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read it.


LEVERAGE- The “Secret Sauce”
Copyright 2011 All Rights Reserved
I remember not too long ago, watching in awe as POWERFUL looking skiers would ski by.
Many of them appeared to be naturally gifted athletes. When speaking to them most could only
attribute their success to learning proper ski technique and training. Everything just seemed to
work for them and I found many totally unaware of elements of their equipment allowed them to
ski so beautifully. What many of those powerful skiers exhibited was a natural LEVERAGE
generated inside their ski boots! IMO, this is the “secret sauce” to becoming a powerful
skier…for the rest of us.
Often you will hear “expert” instructors say “roll the knees to edge the skis”. Though not totally
inappropriate the knees should not be the first “trigger” in “chain of movement” (the sequence of
how the muscles fire when making a turn). Whether they realize it or not, real expert skiers
(mostly) begin the chain of movement AT THE BOTTOMS OF THE FEET. The feet provide the
anchor from which power transfers to the ski, then followed by rolling of the knees and ultimately
angulation of the hips. Yes, one could initiate an edged turn by rolling the knees or even with hip
angulation, but if you think about it, when you start with the feet, the skis engage immediately.
The farther up the movement chain you begin the turn with the slower the skis will react.
To be even more specific regarding where the first “trigger” point of a turn is, you will find it
slightly behind the ball of the foot, and slightly to the inside of center. I call it the
“POWER POINT” [See illustration1]
Illustration 1

Adjusting equipment for the individual skier for maximum efficiency relatively
simple, yet seems to escape most of the “expert” boot fitters, technicians and
instructors alike. One simply has to locate the “POWER POINT” and balance the
skier over it! The POWER POINT is essentially a fulcrum. Once located, all
you have to do is make sure your foot is supported properly at that location as it becomes the
“command center” of the boot/ski interface, allowing the skier to direct power
to the ski by simply rolling in any direction. This provides the most efficient
control in all directions and becomes the key to fine tuning your turns as they
develop! [Note- Some boot fitters focus on supporting the arch. Over-support of the arch can defeat the fulcrum/pivot point which is essential for maximum foot control.]

Once the skier’s mass is aligned over the POWER POINT simple movements of
rolling the feet can transfer power/energy fore/aft/right/left to the ski with little or
no body movement. Getting the ski edges to engage early is the key to a great turn.
The biggest issue that I see with so many skiers is poor fore/aft balance. The more precisely
balanced (positioned) from front to back on top of the ski the easier it will be to direct the edges
of the ski, end to end, at will. Think of it like a teeter-totter. Imagine someone sitting in the
middle of a well balanced teeter-totter. It isn’t hard to get one end to go up and the other to go
down, or vice versa. But if the sitter is just a little off-center, one has to make contorted moves,
just to keep the teeter-totter in a balanced position.
We have all seen skiers “in the back seat”, butt sticking out, hands out and forward, just fighting
for ski control. Some really good skiers put up with a bit of back-seatedness, and somehow
manage to stay in control and are really never quick nor efficient. At the end of a long day their
legs are tired and burning.

Fore/aft balance is pretty easy, but has some issues that we never speak of. Every boot has a “ramp
angle”. That is essentially how high the heel is in relation to the toe. The position of the boot
mounted on the ski affects how much ramp angle is needed due to the curvature of the top of the ski
(see illustration 2). It is essential that the skier is aligned so that he/she can be balanced front-toback
over the POWER POINT so that supporting all of the skiers weight (mass) is done skeletally,
rather than being held in postion with muscular effort. In other words, the skier should just be able
to stand in the flexed skiers’ position with the mass balanced right over the POWER POINT. Most
often a skier out of balance needs more ramp angle to get aligned longitudinally (fore/aft) to get out
of that “back seat” position. Often too little ramp angle is easily fixed by adding a small heel lift. It
is far more rare to see skiers with too much ramp angle. Too much ramp angle is exhibited by too
much pressure on the tongue area of the boot, or in extreme cases, “hanging” in the binding.
[Footnote: Often when a skier is too far back on his skis an inexperienced instructor will tell
him/her to “keep the hands forward”. Adjusting the hands without addressing the longitudinal
balance is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. Everything starts with balancing over the
PROPER point of the feet (POWER POINT)]
Illustration 2

Once we have established proper fore/aft position we can turn our attention to lateral alignment.
If you will note in Illustration 1, the Power Point is not located in the center of the foot, but
almost directly behind the second toe. With the foot properly positioned neutrally (laterally) on
the boot insole, one has to make sure that the natural stance laterally aligns over the POWER
POINT. This can be measured with a plumb-bob, hanging from the center of mass of the knee to
roughly over the second toe. Once this is accomplished, the boot cuff should be adjusted so that
there is equal space on both sides of the lower leg. Getting all the elements aligned laterally will
allow quick and easy access to the edges on both sides of the skis.
Once all this is done, the fun begins. While standing in your boots, try to feel for the POWER
POINT area on your foot. In my boots I actually build up the area with a few small pieces of
decorator tape (similar to electrical tape, but not as gooey). Duct tape can work well too, but
requires fewer pieces and is not as easily refined. Once I have the proper support, all I have to do
to edge in either direction is ROLL MY FOOT OFF THE POWER POINT. Because of where
my mass is aligned, I can adjust pressure to the front or back of the ski with very little additional
effort while I am edging.

The major part of the success of the system is the leverage generated. You see, as you roll your
foot/ankle off the POWER POINT, your lower leg will LEVERAGE into the side of the boot. It’s
like pushing off from the bottom center of the foot INTO the side of the boot. You should be able
to feel it from the top (usually front) part of your ankle and pretty far up the boot shaft. By
leveraging THIS way your boots don’t have to be as stiff to generate the kind of power needed to
make slicing turns. The foot and leg are held solidly by the torque created when pushing from the
center of the foot to the boot walls.
 

fatbob

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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,288
1) Place treadmill in industrial freezer. Put on lead diving boots and attempt to run on full speed.
2) For light relief go and sit on chair in wind tunnel
3) Elbow your way through the biggest sporting crowd you can find and buy a mediocre slice of pizza and overpriced soda
4) Hand $300 to a stranger to lecture you in a foreign language in a comforting tone
5) Treat yourself to a cocktail and then attempt to walk across an icerink to your car carrying a couple of 2x4s

If you survive all that congrats you can apply to be a skier
 

vindibona1

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Posts
174
Location
Northern Illinoi
1-The right boot is your best friend, the wrong boot is your worst enemy
2-All great skiers have one thing in common, they are forward in their boots
3-Never underestimate the importance of pole plants
4-Pull your heels back between turns
5-Turning starts from the feet up (very few understand this)


Forgive me for jumping in, Lindsey...I agree with everything above, I think perhaps some elaboration might be good as it might help up-and-coming skiers to understand the basis for these points. The points seem so obvious to skiers who've been around for awhile, but the noobies might benefit from some further explanation.

1) Boots- So true. But getting the right boots is essential, for some (like me) super-fine tuning the boots can really help make skiing so much easier. As one example, I didn't know how easy skiing could be until I had my boot-soles ground.

2) 2 and 4 and 5 are interrelated. But staying "forward" in the boots doesn't mean over-flexing. If you are skiing from the bottoms of your feet (5) you need very little forward pressure on your shins. The forward position creates an angle that more readily permits rolling to the edge and starting by the bottoms of the feet (5) helps create the leverage for stability and power. So, staying "forward" in your boot is about position, not flex. If you have to over-flex the boots to get the skis to work, you should possibly look into havin your boots and insoles looked at and perhaps adjusted.

3) Pole plants. While they can help with stability in some situation, I think of pole swing (and sometimes touch and sometimes plant) as an aid to BODY POSITION (which unlocks the feet (again, see 5).

4) Pull heels back. Similar to 2, keeping the skis underneath you, or think about staying forward in your boots- as your skis want to throw you in the back seat. Sometimes it's hard to tell someone to stay forward when conceptually it's easier to think about pulling your feet underneath you. If you pull your heels back you will stay forward.

5) I've posted an entire diatribe about that in a reply above. While it is listed as #5, the importance of working from the feet up should be underscored.... with large exclamation points after!
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
Skier
Joined
May 4, 2017
Posts
1,133
#2 above DOES NOT mean your heel is lifted/lightened inside the boot in order to get extra weight on the ball-of-the-foot. That is not good idea. Keep weight on the whole foot, with the heel firmly seated against the floor of the boot.

What #2 does means is to close your ankle (dorsiflex your ankles) to get your lower leg to tilt forward. This creates constant contact between the shin and the boot's tongue. Peole say "shin-tongue" as a mantra when they are learning to stand this way in their boots. This is what "forward in your boots" means.

Like this:
View attachment 91153
View attachment 91154
View attachment 91157

NOT like this:
View attachment 91156
View attachment 91158

LF. Totally agree with what you say in your first paragraph but you loose me in the second. Especially pic # 3 vs 1&2. Can you elaborate? How do we reconcile the term "Centered Balanced" in pic 3 with "forward in the boots" pic 1&2? Which should the skier be focused on?
I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot.
The "severity" of shin/tongue interaction is a result not a goal IMO and therefore I can't understand why an instructor would tell a student to press forward into their boots.
 

SSSdave

life is short precious ...don't waste it
Skier
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Posts
2,516
Location
Silicon Valley
1 - Have FUN.

2 - Know the Skier's Responsibility Code.

3 - While riding a lift, when you take a glove off to get something out of a pocket...be very very careful not to drop it. Stick it under a leg or securely in a pocket. Likewise be very careful when handling anything from pockets, especially a smartphone or camera.

4 - Do not ski atop rocks, only ski on white snow.

5 - Avoid skiing any trail with a black icon sign unless you are wearing diapers.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
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Location
New England
LF. Totally agree with what you say in your first paragraph but you loose me in the second. Especially pic # 3 vs 1&2. Can you elaborate? How do we reconcile the term "Centered Balanced" in pic 3 with "forward in the boots" pic 1&2? Which should the skier be focused on?
I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot.
The "severity" of shin/tongue interaction is a result not a goal IMO and therefore I can't understand why an instructor would tell a student to press forward into their boots.

The goal is to keep skier's weight more or less centered over the ski. Agree totally.
Bindings are not screwed onto the skis for alpine skiing in the center. They are back, and the boots are therefore back. Something has to be done besides standing straight up from the ski to get the skier's weight hovering over the actual middle of the ski. The solution is to tilt the skier forward from the ankle up. Doing this tilt, starting with the ankle flexing forward, creates shin-tongue contact. The goal is not to muscularly bend the cuff, just to get the shin tilted forward and therefore against the tongue.

Surely you don't have a problem with this, do you?

Some people belong in the accordion-ankle camp, opening and closing the ankles with every turn. I'm more in the keep-ankles-closed camp where yes, there is some opening and closing at the ankle, but not much, and the shins stay tilted forward. I think both camps must be effective, since there are so many seasoned skiers in each one.

From my perspective as a camp #2 member, an effective teaching cue that's important for skiers who ski with shins vertical is to keep those ankles firmly closed to get the shins tilted forward. A self-check is to feel that shin-tongue contact. Once they have purged the evil vertical shin habit, we can start loosening those ankles a bit. I don't think I'm alone in this camp. Maybe you are in the other camp? I think they both must work.
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
Skier
Joined
May 4, 2017
Posts
1,133
@LiquidFeet comments in GREEN

The goal is to keep skier's weight more or less centered over the ski. Agree totally.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said "I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot. " The fact is that the center of the ski is not the center of shape and it continues to puzzle me why many do not factor that into their opinions. The center of the ski is forward bias and therefore can help with initiation. But once into the turn you want your mass to be aligned with the center of shape, not the center of the ski. How much shin to boot contact is dependent on a number of factors because we are not only dealing with pressure management, we are dealing with the construction of angles.

Bindings are not screwed onto the skis for alpine skiing in the center. They are back, and the boots are therefore back. Something has to be done besides standing straight up from the ski to get the skier's weight hovering over the actual middle of the ski. The solution is to tilt the skier forward from the ankle up. Doing this tilt, starting with the ankle flexing forward, creates shin-tongue contact. The goal is not to muscularly bend the cuff, just to get the shin tilted forward and therefore against the tongue.

Where did I mention standing straight up? You make assertions that are not true. Is the skier in Pic 3 standing straight up? So let me understand what your wrote above. Designers purposely created a problem and then designed boots to fix the problem? The boot is designed with a forward bias because we need to learn to balance our mass through the center of the arch/foot vs our heels which is how we balance when standing and the fact that the ski's center of shape is under center of the foot is no accident. In addition, your pics 1 & 2 tend to belie your correct point in the last sentence above.

Some people belong in the accordion-ankle camp, opening and closing the ankles with every turn. I'm more in the keep-ankles-closed camp where yes, there is some opening and closing at the ankle, but not much, and the shins stay tilted forward. I think both camps must be effective, since there are so many seasoned skiers in each one.

I may be a camp of one but the ankles are just one component of the flex complex (ankles/knees/hips). To treat them in isolation is a mistake IMO. It is finding that right combination of flexing (and we are all a bit different) that results in optimum pressure and edge angle management. If we truly believe that we ski from the bottom up, the focus should be on tipping the foot first using the ankle (vs flexing) in which the ankles play an important roll. So I accept that we have a honest difference of opinion.

From my perspective as a camp #2 member, an effective teaching cue that's important for skiers who ski with shins vertical is to keep those ankles firmly closed to get the shins tilted forward. A self-check is to feel that shin-tongue contact. Once they have purged the evil vertical shin habit, we can start loosening those ankles a bit. I don't think I'm alone in this camp. Maybe you are in the other camp? I think they both must work.

I used to ski using shin to tongue tactile input as a "self check" but now its the inside arch of my outside foot and if I am feeling it compressing into the turn, I am effectively managing pressure and building edge angles over the center of shape. All is good.
 

CalG

Out on the slopes
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Feb 5, 2017
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@LiquidFeet comments in GREEN

The goal is to keep skier's weight more or less centered over the ski. Agree totally.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said "I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot. " The fact is that the center of the ski is not the center of shape and it continues to puzzle me why many do not factor that into their opinions. The center of the ski is forward bias and therefore can help with initiation. But once into the turn you want your mass to be aligned with the center of shape, not the center of the ski. How much shin to boot contact is dependent on a number of factors because we are not only dealing with pressure management, we are dealing with the construction of angles.

Bindings are not screwed onto the skis for alpine skiing in the center. They are back, and the boots are therefore back. Something has to be done besides standing straight up from the ski to get the skier's weight hovering over the actual middle of the ski. The solution is to tilt the skier forward from the ankle up. Doing this tilt, starting with the ankle flexing forward, creates shin-tongue contact. The goal is not to muscularly bend the cuff, just to get the shin tilted forward and therefore against the tongue.

Where did I mention standing straight up? You make assertions that are not true. Is the skier in Pic 3 standing straight up? So let me understand what your wrote above. Designers purposely created a problem and then designed boots to fix the problem? The boot is designed with a forward bias because we need to learn to balance our mass through the center of the arch/foot vs our heels which is how we balance when standing and the fact that the ski's center of shape is under center of the foot is no accident. In addition, your pics 1 & 2 tend to belie your correct point in the last sentence above.

Some people belong in the accordion-ankle camp, opening and closing the ankles with every turn. I'm more in the keep-ankles-closed camp where yes, there is some opening and closing at the ankle, but not much, and the shins stay tilted forward. I think both camps must be effective, since there are so many seasoned skiers in each one.

I may be a camp of one but the ankles are just one component of the flex complex (ankles/knees/hips). To treat them in isolation is a mistake IMO. It is finding that right combination of flexing (and we are all a bit different) that results in optimum pressure and edge angle management. If we truly believe that we ski from the bottom up, the focus should be on tipping the foot first using the ankle (vs flexing) in which the ankles play an important roll. So I accept that we have a honest difference of opinion.

From my perspective as a camp #2 member, an effective teaching cue that's important for skiers who ski with shins vertical is to keep those ankles firmly closed to get the shins tilted forward. A self-check is to feel that shin-tongue contact. Once they have purged the evil vertical shin habit, we can start loosening those ankles a bit. I don't think I'm alone in this camp. Maybe you are in the other camp? I think they both must work.

I used to ski using shin to tongue tactile input as a "self check" but now its the inside arch of my outside foot and if I am feeling it compressing into the turn, I am effectively managing pressure and building edge angles over the center of shape. All is good.
this thread got off track quickly.
All this shin and arch pressure , binding location and ski center for someone who is going skiing for just one day.....
We can be a bit much at times... ;-)
 

dbostedo

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As this is a beginner thread, I'll ask that we don't dive any deeper into the minutiae of ski balance. Please take that to a thread in the instruction forum.
 

Coach13

Making fresh tracks
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Posts
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No. VA
@LiquidFeet comments in GREEN

The goal is to keep skier's weight more or less centered over the ski. Agree totally.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said "I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot. " The fact is that the center of the ski is not the center of shape and it continues to puzzle me why many do not factor that into their opinions. The center of the ski is forward bias and therefore can help with initiation. But once into the turn you want your mass to be aligned with the center of shape, not the center of the ski. How much shin to boot contact is dependent on a number of factors because we are not only dealing with pressure management, we are dealing with the construction of angles.

Bindings are not screwed onto the skis for alpine skiing in the center. They are back, and the boots are therefore back. Something has to be done besides standing straight up from the ski to get the skier's weight hovering over the actual middle of the ski. The solution is to tilt the skier forward from the ankle up. Doing this tilt, starting with the ankle flexing forward, creates shin-tongue contact. The goal is not to muscularly bend the cuff, just to get the shin tilted forward and therefore against the tongue.

Where did I mention standing straight up? You make assertions that are not true. Is the skier in Pic 3 standing straight up? So let me understand what your wrote above. Designers purposely created a problem and then designed boots to fix the problem? The boot is designed with a forward bias because we need to learn to balance our mass through the center of the arch/foot vs our heels which is how we balance when standing and the fact that the ski's center of shape is under center of the foot is no accident. In addition, your pics 1 & 2 tend to belie your correct point in the last sentence above.

Some people belong in the accordion-ankle camp, opening and closing the ankles with every turn. I'm more in the keep-ankles-closed camp where yes, there is some opening and closing at the ankle, but not much, and the shins stay tilted forward. I think both camps must be effective, since there are so many seasoned skiers in each one.

I may be a camp of one but the ankles are just one component of the flex complex (ankles/knees/hips). To treat them in isolation is a mistake IMO. It is finding that right combination of flexing (and we are all a bit different) that results in optimum pressure and edge angle management. If we truly believe that we ski from the bottom up, the focus should be on tipping the foot first using the ankle (vs flexing) in which the ankles play an important roll. So I accept that we have a honest difference of opinion.

From my perspective as a camp #2 member, an effective teaching cue that's important for skiers who ski with shins vertical is to keep those ankles firmly closed to get the shins tilted forward. A self-check is to feel that shin-tongue contact. Once they have purged the evil vertical shin habit, we can start loosening those ankles a bit. I don't think I'm alone in this camp. Maybe you are in the other camp? I think they both must work.

I used to ski using shin to tongue tactile input as a "self check" but now its the inside arch of my outside foot and if I am feeling it compressing into the turn, I am effectively managing pressure and building edge angles over the center of shape. All is good.

Skiing balanced over my arch works best for me. I get it that most elite skiers understand the the importance of flexing the ankles but most non elite skiers simply bend their knees in an attempt to get forward and it simply has the opposite effect by dropping their rear further back.
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
Skier
Joined
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Posts
1,133
As this is a beginner thread, I'll ask that we don't dive any deeper into the minutiae of ski balance. Please take that to a thread in the instruction forum.

This was a discussion between instructors but your point is taken. However, if we are going to get beginners off on the right foot (excuse the pun) they need to be taught to balance properly and allowing this statement: 2-All great skiers have one thing in common, they are forward in their boots" to stand is not accurate nor helpful IMO.
 

LiquidFeet

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New England
@LiquidFeet comments in GREEN

The goal is to keep skier's weight more or less centered over the ski. Agree totally.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said "I believe the act of controlling the ski through the center of the foot using coordinated flexing and extending of the joints from the foot to the hips is what results in the ability to properly manage pressure, edging and rotary. After all, center of shape is under the center of the foot. " The fact is that the center of the ski is not the center of shape and it continues to puzzle me why many do not factor that into their opinions. The center of the ski is forward bias and therefore can help with initiation. But once into the turn you want your mass to be aligned with the center of shape, not the center of the ski. How much shin to boot contact is dependent on a number of factors because we are not only dealing with pressure management, we are dealing with the construction of angles.

Bindings are not screwed onto the skis for alpine skiing in the center. They are back, and the boots are therefore back. Something has to be done besides standing straight up from the ski to get the skier's weight hovering over the actual middle of the ski. The solution is to tilt the skier forward from the ankle up. Doing this tilt, starting with the ankle flexing forward, creates shin-tongue contact. The goal is not to muscularly bend the cuff, just to get the shin tilted forward and therefore against the tongue.

Where did I mention standing straight up? You make assertions that are not true. Is the skier in Pic 3 standing straight up? So let me understand what your wrote above. Designers purposely created a problem and then designed boots to fix the problem? The boot is designed with a forward bias because we need to learn to balance our mass through the center of the arch/foot vs our heels which is how we balance when standing and the fact that the ski's center of shape is under center of the foot is no accident. In addition, your pics 1 & 2 tend to belie your correct point in the last sentence above.

Some people belong in the accordion-ankle camp, opening and closing the ankles with every turn. I'm more in the keep-ankles-closed camp where yes, there is some opening and closing at the ankle, but not much, and the shins stay tilted forward. I think both camps must be effective, since there are so many seasoned skiers in each one.

I may be a camp of one but the ankles are just one component of the flex complex (ankles/knees/hips). To treat them in isolation is a mistake IMO. It is finding that right combination of flexing (and we are all a bit different) that results in optimum pressure and edge angle management. If we truly believe that we ski from the bottom up, the focus should be on tipping the foot first using the ankle (vs flexing) in which the ankles play an important roll. So I accept that we have a honest difference of opinion.

From my perspective as a camp #2 member, an effective teaching cue that's important for skiers who ski with shins vertical is to keep those ankles firmly closed to get the shins tilted forward. A self-check is to feel that shin-tongue contact. Once they have purged the evil vertical shin habit, we can start loosening those ankles a bit. I don't think I'm alone in this camp. Maybe you are in the other camp? I think they both must work.

I used to ski using shin to tongue tactile input as a "self check" but now its the inside arch of my outside foot and if I am feeling it compressing into the turn, I am effectively managing pressure and building edge angles over the center of shape. All is good.

Let me remind you that this is as noobie thread. Oh wait, I see others have said the same.

We definitely need to keep our ideas simple in this thread and remember that we need to talk as if we are addressing a first-day beginner. @JESinstr, if I started you on the road to too much complication, it was not my intention.
 

Coach13

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As this is a beginner thread, I'll ask that we don't dive any deeper into the minutiae of ski balance. Please take that to a thread in the instruction forum.

I get your point, but balance may be the most important skill for a beginner to learn/master. They do that, it’s all down hill from there! Lol
 

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