New Tires, Winter Tire Set or just new M+S?

[zephyr17]

I have M+S tires that were on my 4x4 truck that I bought used 2 seasons ago that is my ski vehicle. They are the worst M+S tires ever for winter driving. The tires appear to have good tread, but they are clearly old based on little cracks in the sidewall and I think the tread has significantly hardened up. In any case, they are a lot less grippy than the M+S tires I had on my old 4x4 truck it replaced. Have had a series of incidents with them over the last 2 seasons. No accidents, but a lot of issues, particularly getting around on icy parking lots where the wheels just spin on the slightest slope. I am done with them, at least for skiing. All the incidents are frustrating, but more than that, they've convinced me that those tires are a safety issue for winter conditions if I don't chain (which I totally hate).

My question is whether or not to bite the bullet and go whole hog and buy a set of full on winter tires (probably Nokian Hakkapellita R2s) on their own rims, and keep the current M+S for summer driving (the current ones are okay in non-winter conditions),or just replace my current tires with a better set of M+S tires .

I live in the greater Seattle area and I will ski at Crystal Mountain pretty much every weekend this winter that I don't ski someplace else. In addition I will go to Whistler at least twice and will go to Sun Peaks, BC (say hello, Coquihalla) at least once, possibly more. I tend not to let the weather stop me from going, unless there are full on blizzard/whiteout conditions that I know of in advance.

Finally, the truck is not my everyday ride. In the winter I really only use it for skiing.

 

[François Pugh]

Nokian now has an SUV 9. https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-hakkapeliitta-9-suv/

That's what I would buy for my SUV winter tire.

 

[Ken_R]

I have M+S tires that were on my 4x4 truck that I bought used 2 seasons ago that is my ski vehicle. They are the worst M+S tires ever for winter driving. The tires appear to have good tread, but they are clearly old based on little cracks in the sidewall and I think the tread has significantly hardened up. In any case, they are a lot less grippy than the M+S tires I had on my old 4x4 truck it replaced. Have had a series of incidents with them over the last 2 seasons. No accidents, but a lot of issues, particularly getting around on icy parking lots where the wheels just spin on the slightest slope. I am done with them, at least for skiing. All the incidents are frustrating, but more than that, they've convinced me that those tires are a safety issue for winter conditions if I don't chain (which I totally hate).

My question is whether or not to bite the bullet and go whole hog and buy a set of full on winter tires (probably Nokian Hakkapellita R2s) on their own rims, and keep the current M+S for summer driving (the current ones are okay in non-winter conditions),or just replace my current tires with a better set of M+S tires .

I live in the greater Seattle area and I will ski at Crystal Mountain pretty much every weekend this winter that I don't ski someplace else. In addition I will go to Whistler at least twice and will go to Sun Peaks, BC (say hello, Coquihalla) at least once, possibly more. I tend not to let the weather stop me from going, unless there are full on blizzard/whiteout conditions that I know of in advance.

Finally, the truck is not my everyday ride. In the winter I really only use it for skiing.

Good year round AT option that works VERY well in snow: Cooper A/T3's (I have had them Since 2016 on my Honda Pilot)

That said, a full on Winter Tire is better in winter conditions. The Hakka R2's are an awesome choice. I couldnt get them last year instead I got a set of Blizzak DM-V2's for my Subbie and they worked VERY well all last winter here in Colorado through some really nasty conditions. A winter tire is the best choice for winter performance and safety no question.

 

[François Pugh]

If you spend most of your time on bare or wet pavement and want to retain the ability to do some spirited driving during the winter on that pavement, the Hakka R3 (replaces the R2) is a good choice. I have the R2 on my Mazda 3; studs are not allowed in southern Ontario Canada, and when I bought the tires I could not be sure I wouldn't be living there.

One thing about Blizzaks is the good rubber only lasts about two seasons. At which point a lot of folk sell them off and buy new tires as they consider the tread depth too low for snow driving anyway. I like to keep my winter (past experience with X-ice, IIs and IIIs) tires for 4 or 5 winters.

 

[Bill Talbot]

If you spend most of your time on bare or wet pavement and want to retain the ability to do some spirited driving during the winter on that pavement, the Hakka R3 (replaces the R2) is a good choice. I have the R2 on my Mazda 3; studs are not allowed in southern Ontario Canada, and when I bought the tires I could not be sure I wouldn't be living there.

One thing about Blizzaks is the good rubber only lasts about two seasons. At which point a lot of folk sell them off and buy new tires as they consider the tread depth too low for snow driving anyway. I like to keep my winter (past experience with X-ice, IIs and IIIs) tires for 4 or 5 winters.

I get three full seasons out of a set of Blizzak WS80's on my WRX. But would not care in the least if it was only two. On my prior fwd GTI, I would put a brand new pair on the front EVERY fall and the old fronts would then go on the rear. The drive torque split over the four soft tires really helps the wear. I discard them well before the 'snow bars' are reached, not pass them on to others which would be a disservice to them.
Tires are a very small part of the costs in keeping a car. Good winter specific tires, if you drive in real winter conditions are priceless for control and therefore your safety. This often because of others out driving in these conditions without proper equipment on their cars can cause you problems! No compromises...

 

[ScotsSkier]

A good choice of a full winter tire for your truck could be Yokohama lG 51. Hands down best snow tire I have used and I have run variousblizzaks, firestone, hankook, general, etc. I ran them for 2 full seasons on my f150, then sold them with a lot of life left. ( and I am hard on tires). I made the mistake of trying general Altimax last year - big disappointment . The generals may work on a car but didn't seem to be up to the job on a truck. So, back to Yokohama this year... and my wife also has them on her Macan turbo, going into their fourth winter season.... I run ATs on my truck the rest of the year and, while they can cope with some snow, they just don't give the same level of traction and confidence a full winter tire does here in Tahoe.

But as always, different people wil have different thoughts. I base my recommendations simply on what I have tried and experienced an know works for me. YMMV

 

[Sibhusky]

Nokian now has an SUV 9. https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-hakkapeliitta-9-suv/

That's what I would buy for my SUV winter tire.

My daughter has that tire. Very happy with it EXCEPT it has odd cups around the studs. She was concerned enough to contact the tire place and they went back to Nokian. Nokian said that this would wear away. But I've certainly never had this (on my third or fourth set of Hakka's.) And it's too soon to tell if this is going to mean anything.

This was at just over 1000 miles.

 

[BGreen]

But I've certainly never had this (on my third or fourth set of Hakka's.)

I’ve had that on at least a couple. It went away after a few thousand miles. I think it comes from the studs not being properly seated when first installed, and then driving in warm (for a winter tire) conditions. Of all the studded tires I’ve had, I’d say that happened on probably 1/4 of them.

@zephyr17 You need to understand what winter tires are/aren’t and why you need them relative to your conditions. What I mean is that many of them are tailored for conditions that you many never see. As an example, Blizzaks and most “ice” tires (the ones that win all the ice rink tests) are designed for maximum traction in wet ice. That is a condition that rarely happens where I am, and when it does, there is slush on top of the ice, so a tire has to be able to evacuate the slush before the ice is even a factor. I don’t know what you drive on, but you just need to understand what your road conditions are vis a vis tire tread and compound. I won’t comment because I’m not familiar with the roads in your area, but I would think you see more rain and slush than hardpack snow and ice. If that’s the case, something with a more open tread may be a better option. Also, if the bulk of your driving is on dry and wet roads, I would think twice before going with a studded tire. Something like a Cooper AT-W or Discoverer M+S (studded), or General Altimax could be good. I’m running Nokian Rotiiva AT+ as a summer tire, but it may be an option as well. I’m planning to run it until winter conditions actually happen before switching to my winter tires. I’m a big fan of Michelin X-Ice series as all-season tires, but they are terrible in slush. BFG AT KO2s are decent in most conditions except for ice and hard pack snow.

 

[zephyr17]

Thanks all.

A bit more information. I do not drive the truck every day during the winter, I have a car for daily use, I use the truck only to go skiing (or if we have lowland snow). Lowland snow happens, but only occasionally and usually does not last very long. Maybe a total of a week over the course of the whole winter, in a relatively "bad" winter, maybe. Lots of winters, none at all. It is once I get into the mountains that is a concern. Wet ice is a major concern and a pretty common occurrence in western Washington and BC mountains (worst incidents were on wet ice). Once in the mountains we do commonly have hardpack and ice. Snow tends to be really heavy (wet). Slush can be there, especially in the parking lots, but my crappy M+S tires handle slush fine. I just need a tire that doesn't do worse in slush. Going to Crystal on weekends I drive like 75 minutes on (usually) wet roads before I get into the snow zone, I am in true winter conditions only for the last 30-45 minutes of the drive. Same thing for going to Whistler, mostly just wet until at least past Squamish. Sun Peaks is a different animal, mostly just wet roads for a couple of hours until I hit the Coq and then all hell can break loose in terms of winter driving.

So I need a tire that is decent on wet roads, but can handle bad winter conditions. And with decent tread life, especially since a lot of the miles will be on wet, though relatively cold (35-45 degrees) roads and not full winter conditions..

 

[BGreen]

What makes a tire good on ice and good in slush are not the same. That said, just pick your most important variables. The Michelin may be a good option for you. Any of the Hakapellita series would work, though tread life isn't the best. Blizzak would work if the priority is cheap (Costco is your friend) and if you only plan to use half tread depth. If you can deal with the noise of squirm of studs, a studded Altimax would be fine. When you shop places like Tirerack, try to focus on reviews in your area. Just understand that when you are dealing with tires, everything is a compromise, so pick your most important variables and buy for those and accept what you have to give up to get it. The Michelins are pretty good everywhere but slush. The Blizzaks are decent in most conditions, but give up dry road and treadwear. Nokians are decent all around (though used to suck in deep and loose/churned) but are expensive. The Michelin LTX is not a snow-rated tire because the tread compound is rock hard, but it's pretty good in everything except ice. When you understand what you need and what you are willing to give up, it will be easier to find the right tire.

If you look at a non-studded ice tire, and a studded tire, you will see that the studded tire has pretty big voids by comparison. That is the only tire in my experience that works on slush covered ice. Good luck and keep in mind that it's hard to buy a bad set of winter tires. They are all pretty good.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Good points BGreen. I would add that run my experience the Blizzaks (and I have run several DMZ, DMV and WS variants) are at their worst in slush - probably because the voids are on the smaller side. I found the Yokos to hugely outperform them there (interestingly the tread pattern on the Yokos is very similar to that of the Michelin Noras i used to run on my rally cars in the 80s which I found gave me the best performance in snow and really muddy conditions). Reason I tried the General Altimax last season was because I reckoned that, like the Michelin X-ice, it would offer a decent compromise when a lot of driving was still on clear roads. For me I found it was not a worthwhile compromise, not offering any performance improvement over a more extreme tire like the Yokos on dry pavement while giving up snow performance. Based on tire wear it was not going to last any longer either...

 

[zephyr17]

Obviously, where I ran into problems made the greatest impression, which was on ice, and to a much lesser extent hardpack. I don't have really clear memories of slush, as that wasn't a problem. However, what I do recall generally in the mountains around here if it was slushy, it was a pretty temporary condition as it would be getting rained off pretty quickly. At worst, it would be plowed off, but either way my recollection is slush doesn't tend to stick around in the mountains here (parking lots excluded). So what I am really after is really good ice and snow performance and decent wet road performance (to get up to the mountains). And I don't want studs. From what I've read, the Nokian Hakkapellita SUV R2s seem to make the grade there on both ice and wet.

I've never bought full on winter tires before. I've never needed them where I've lived day in/day out and still don't for my daily use car. M+S with 4x4 have seemed to make the grade for heading into the mountains (current tires excepted). However, the last three seasons I have been skiing weekends like clockwork, so I've been driving winter roads more plus I've been driving more on winter roads that can have challenging conditions (Coquihalla). Plus there's the fact that other than for winter conditions, my current tires do not need to be replaced. So it seems like if I ever want to go to winter tires, now's the time. Put my money into safety with a good set of winter tires that I do need, rather than an okay set of M+S, which don't need to replaced, except for their abominable winter performance.

Any British Columbian or Washingtonian opinions?

Thanks, all.

 

[François Pugh]

Given what you say above, your two top picks would be Michelin Latitude Alpin and Hakka R2/R3. Not sure what you are driving, but if an X-ice III fits, then add it in to the mix. IMHO the R2 is the best non-studded winter tire I've had on any vehicle for performance in ice (including wet ice), snow and slush, better than x-ice III, which was better than x-ice II and Latitude X-ice.

BTW those miracle rubber compounds and sipes/pumps that work so well on normal temperature ice, don't really work that when it's -20 F.

 

[zephyr17]

Places I go don't even closely approach 0 F, let alone -20 F, so we're good there.

Truck is a 2000 Mazda B4000 SE 4x4, which is Ford Ranger in Mazda drag. Stock rims are 15" for that sub-model and I will have to go to a 16" rim for my winter wheels as there is very little selection in winter tires for the 265/75 R15 tires that are its stock tire. It is apparently now a weird tire size. If I go to a 16" rim, which is fine, I'll go a 265/70 R16 tire where I have a good selection of winter tires, including Hakka R2s, Blizzak, etc. Some of the Michelin X-Ice versions are available, but misremember which ones.

Thanks.

 

[oswaldr2]

If this is your ski mobile, I would buy winter tires. I'm not familiar with the Nokian, as I didn't have a ton of options for my BMW 3 series in run flat snow tires, but I would suggest getting something that's on the longer life spectrum of a winter tire. I think that might be a happy medium as you really only drive this car for winter ski excursions, so get something that will get you there safely when it dumps, but hopefully lasts longer than a really soft winter tire.

just my 2 cents..

 

[zephyr17]

The truck is a secondary vehicle. Other times of the year I use the truck for regular household haulage, also to go off pavement down forest roads and the like. The current tires are fine for that, but during the winter it is pretty much exclusively skiing. I have pretty much decided that I am going to get a winter set of wheels and tires.

BTW, I seem to remember seeing on the Nokian site that they offer run flat Hakka R2s.

Thanks.

 

[François Pugh]

Between the Hakka R2 and the Michelin X-ice 3, the Hakka is better at slush/snow/ice performance, and the Michelin is better in dry road performance. You can really tell the Hakka is a soft tire when you push it on dry roads (and you end up not pushing it because you don't want to scrub all the rubber away!).

 

[tball]

You can't go wrong with the X-ice for an all-around winter tire. Consumer Reports ratings for winter truck tires are Michelin first and Nokian and Bridgestone tied for second. Note CR doesn't test studded tires.

I'm a CO guy, but I've driven to Crystal in a storm in a cheap rental. That drive really tests all aspects of a tire's performance. I agree prioritizing ice performance makes sense, and would probably also avoid studs given the predominantly dry or wet roads you'll see. I also believe you are required to remove studded tires in the summer in WA. Given your usage, you might want to leave your winter tires on year-round at some point.

I've got X-ice on an SUV and studded Hakka's on my truck. The studded Hakka's are better for ice and snow, but the X-ice are better all-around including handling, wet and dry. Given the curvy two-lane road up to Crystal, I think the Michelin's are going to handle much better with their stiffer sidewalls. They drive as close to an all-an all-season tire in terms of handling as any winter tire I've driven.

It seems to me Michelin does an exceptional job managing the tradeoffs to engineer their tires to perform well in all conditions and make them more durable. This applies to the Michelin all-season tires I also run on all our vehicles. Nokian, on the other hand, produces the very best winter tires, hands down when you add studs. Given the drive to Crystal where you'll likely see every condition, I'd go for the all-around performance with a Michelin X-ice.

 

[Slim]

There are quit a few all terrain tires and several all-season tires now with the Mountain-and-Snowflake symbool/rating. Unfortunately, the test is only for packed snow accelaration, which is usually not a problem with 4x4 anyway.

 

[zephyr17]

To close the circle, just bought a set of Hakkapelitta R2 SUVs. We'll see how they do this season!