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New ski Pants recommendations

AmyPJ

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When you're talking about a rain jacket, sure. Especially with a few models that just use an open mesh. Dirt, oils, & sunscreen will get through to the membrane much easier in a 2L vs. a 3L. I keep my climbing kit 3L on bottom and 3L Pro on top and fangirl the Dead Bird brand pretty hard. But similar to how the OP is looking for something warm, I ski in insulated gear top & bottom (Arc Morra pants - RIP, one of the most bomber 2L pants on the market - & the MHW Barnsie). You have to be pretty dirty for skin oils to get through your base layer, a polyester taffeta lining, and a few grams of insulation for lining to get shot.

I disagree that outer fabrics don't matter. I remember talking to a guy on here about a year and a half ago who had a Mountain Hardwear stretch jacket of some sort where he was upset with how fast it started pilling. There wasn't any spandex in the fabric content, so all of it came from mechanical stretch - looser knits or stretch wovens that are woven loosely & shrunken down. Both leave a lot more of the fiber exposed and can pill in the wash or rubbing against pack straps. Most non-stretch wovens will come out of the pill tests with scores in the top range, but I've definitely reviewed swatches that don't, especially in the lower denier fabrics.

As for the Primo, it was a 2L. I'm not really surprised it got dropped. Insulation was an 800+ down, which was an odd choice since it's compromised when wet, and most people sweat a bit over the course of a ski day. Also odd to chase a high fill power since most customers aren't obsessed with optimizing packability or cutting a few ounces out of their ski kit compared to the hiking/climbing community.
I have the Morra pant, nice pants! I just warrantied the zipper on them. I've honestly hardly worn mine as they are a "boring" gray.

This is a really interesting thread for those of us who are not well-versed on the different fabrics, etc.
 

Alexzn

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@Alexzn - it's newer. OR also carries it in some of their tactical products & their Hemisphere collection. It's definitely a standard gore membrane with epfte/pu, but it's the rare case where they specifically call it Goretex Fabric and that it's a low force vs. stretch fabrication (not sure how that's done with milling techniques).

I actually doubt it. ePFTE is not stretchable whatsoever; therefore, I do not see how a laminated textile can change that. GoreTex is not a chemical name, it is a trade name and thus it can mean anything that W.E.Gore wants it to be at any particular point in time. I suspect they made significant changes in the underlying membrane material. The fact that they do not call it GoreTex membrane only deepens the suspicion. There is also a strong suspicion that the current rather breathable GorePro fabric also does not have the protective PU layer either, as (a) it is very hard to get that breathability levels with a PU layer robust enough for practical use and (b) the moisture response profile has changed significantly (i.e. before GoreTex became more breathable at higher humidities when you got really sweaty, and now the Pro coats seem to breath well right away). I do not know and it is probably hard to find out without cutting up a swatch and sticking it in an electron microscope. And WEGore for sure does not volunteer the information...
 

Analisa

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@Alexzn idk what to tell you, dude. It's listed as ePTFE in multiple places, including on product tagging, which carries much larger consequences with the FTC labeling penalties than a plain old false advertising. I highly doubt they're lying to their customers. Not sure how they're doing it - definitely outside my realm of expertise when it comes to construction of the membrane itself. Gore's always been able to answer my questions in a way that's a satisfying answer without delving into all the trade secrets. Maybe since it was a commercial setting? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

LuliTheYounger

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Elastomeric + ePTFE membrance combos have been under published patent since at least 2010, with application dates back to the mid 90s. Gore Medical has had ePTFE products marked "stretch" since even before that; early research mention I could find was in 1993.
 

Alexzn

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@Alexzn idk what to tell you, dude. It's listed as ePTFE in multiple places, including on product tagging, which carries much larger consequences with the FTC labeling penalties than a plain old false advertising. I highly doubt they're lying to their customers. Not sure how they're doing it - definitely outside my realm of expertise when it comes to construction of the membrane itself. Gore's always been able to answer my questions in a way that's a satisfying answer without delving into all the trade secrets. Maybe since it was a commercial setting? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yep. That's why I was curious to find out what's in there. I know it's on the tag (my wife skis in a Ravenna), so I did some digging just for fun. Of course not much is known, but some info can be found in a 2015 Gore patent US 9.126,390B2. Turns out you can stretch ePFTE, but not until you work it a bit more. Look like they first sinter the ePFTE film, then laminate it, after which the laminate is stretched at higher temperature and relaxed at a colder temperature. They claim that these treatments help them avoid plastic deformation in the ePFTE film and avoid delamination of the fabric. Pretty interesting. The introduction is also informative because it talks about why other attempts two make stretch ePFTE fabrics failed. Cool stuff. The timing of the patent also matches the time the stretch technology garments appeared on the market.
 

Alexzn

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Elastomeric + ePTFE membrance combos have been under published patent since at least 2010, with application dates back to the mid 90s. Gore Medical has had ePTFE products marked "stretch" since even before that; early research mention I could find was in 1993.
true, but elastomer/ePFTE combo will not be breathable, so won't work in this case. See the patent mentioned in my previous post.
 

skibum4ever

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In jest, and yes this post will be of no help, but.....

Just wait a few months.....with all the people on Weight Watchers on this site.....there should be a lot of ski pants for sale on here come fall......lol

I don't know about pants, but I will surely be selling a couple of jackets in the fall.
 

EricG

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@Analisa - it does seem that the use of gore stretch is getting more prevalent. I just received my new Patagonia UnTracked Shell with the new stretch material. It seems that the fabric may actually be quieter & softer now than last years version.

But it leads me to a question. I noticed the increase this year in recycled fabric. How does this really work?
 

AmyPJ

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@Analisa - it does seem that the use of gore stretch is getting more prevalent. I just received my new Patagonia UnTracked Shell with the new stretch material. It seems that the fabric may actually be quieter & softer now than last years version.

But it leads me to a question. I noticed the increase this year in recycled fabric. How does this really work?
Patagonia sent out a big "catalog" that talked in depth about their recycling process. It's pretty awesome. I'd share more but I recycled mine :D
It definitely makes me more inclined to buy their products over others as a result.
 

Uncle-A

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I am a big fan of Eddie Bauer products and have not been disappointed by any I have purchased. You can find them on line and their sizes are available in a tall if needed. The WeatherEdge line is their highest level of water proofing, not sure if they are fashionable enough for the OP but they sure are functional. They do have stores and a few outlets are available for discount prices. Good luck.
 

HDSkiing

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Wow I had no idea about all this stuff as I have never thought much about it. As always this site is a wealth of information!

I used to be a Spider fan & in fact the warmest parka I own is a spider from around 2007 and it’s still in great condition. However over the years their quality has degraded IMHO at least with their pants.

Anyway I switched over to Patagonia a couple seasons back. I wear what I think are called their Mountain Utility Pants. For me anyway they are super warm especially when paired with a medium base layer from a company called Skins. The pants are designed with mountain workers/guides/instructors/patrollers in mind with lots of reinforcement and cool little slots to hold pens/knives/tools etc.

I wore them over 100 days last season with plenty of washing’s. No fading (like Spider) and they are really still like new, no fraying in cuffs (like Spider), the zippers don’t get jammed (like Spider) Anyway you can see a trend here and that’s the extent of my knowledge when it comes to mountain wear.
 

EricG

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Patagonia sent out a big "catalog" that talked in depth about their recycling process. It's pretty awesome. I'd share more but I recycled mine :D
It definitely makes me more inclined to buy their products over others as a result.

Ours got recycled before I read it. Damn house guests and a quick attempt to clean up before they showed up.. :doh:
 

Slim

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Regarding Stretch GTX, I have some pants from around 2001 that are a stretch GTX(2 layer). They are from Millet. At the time, there were several companies that came out with it, but durability was horrible, so I assume it was discontinued because of that. The issue was the membrane just developed a spiderweb of cracks. They were awesome ice climbing pants while they were still waterproof, and even after that, I kept them for a while as sort of soft shell type pants.
 

Analisa

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But it leads me to a question. I noticed the increase this year in recycled fabric. How does this really work?

Polyester and nylon are both plastics that get pumped through spinnerets, which work kind of like a pasta maker, putting out long strands. The strands are either immediately spun with other strands into thread (for slick feeling fabrications), or they’re cut short and spun together (for ones that feel like cotton). The recycled plastics are more likely to be soda bottles than old garments, but apparel can still be recycled multiple times before it’s too degraded.

It’s great because it takes less water and less energy, and the inputs are readily available. I’ve been quoted costs that are fairly even to virgin polyester or upcharges that are largely driven by demands at the mills outpacing capacity for recycled fiber production. rPET started 20+ years ago with Patagonia, but by 2025, expect it to be the norm - athletic wear, formal wear, luxury, Walmart. I work in store-brand apparel, which tends to value price over all other factors and be late to industry trends/changes, and I'm surprised how quickly customers are adopting. Nylon tends to be harder since the polymer chemistry is more complex and just got "unlocked" less than a decade ago where it produces acceptable quality results. The input materials are generally all fabric, like canceled yardage from other manufacturers, so virgin nylon will always be in production.

And on the flip side of that, be sure to recycle your clothes! The average American throws out over 80lbs of clothes every year, of which, 75lbs could be diverted for reuse. Goodwill recycles goods that are too worn for production through an organization called SMART. North Face, H&M, and Levi's have donation boxes in all of their stores (and H&M gives you a discount coupon in exchange). Patagonia recycles their own products at stores or by mail. Many towns either accept apparel at their transfer station, or some even have launched curbside pickup.

But, even more effective, is to buy less. We produce 8 times as many garments per year now than we did in the 70's and buy about 70 pieces per year. Do your research on what you need (or hit me up, I love this shit), wear it to death, donate or re-sell if you don't, and buy used when you can. Read your care labels and take good care of pieces to extend the lifespan of your garments. All the green apparel initiatives in the world will never be able to counteract the footprint of overconsumption.
 

Analisa

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Thank you very much for this info, I had no idea.

So many people don’t! Somehow this narrative has been perpetuated that it's disrespectful to donate clothes that you find unwearable because it's an insult to dignity for lower-income people who used to be the primary customer of thrift stores. (Now it's a bunch of people with Poshmark empires). But it routed a lot of worn clothing to landfills.

You can even mail clothing/house goods/kids clothes donations to Goodwill and Amazon pays for it. Instead of driving an hour to goodwill we request shipping labels and the boxes get sent to regional goodwill centers.

Thank you for this! Learning something new about my own job every day. I'd love to see if our org could do some sort of "out with old, in with the new" messaging, especially for basics that get refreshed in customer wardrobes on a regular basis.
 

LuliTheYounger

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rPET started 20+ years ago with Patagonia, but by 2025, expect it to be the norm - athletic wear, formal wear, luxury, Walmart. I work in store-brand apparel, which tends to value price over all other factors and be late to industry trends/changes, and I'm surprised how quickly customers are adopting.

I had a professor at school who was in one of the Patagonia factory meetings years ago, and then went on work at a bigger company doing store brand development. She said Patagonia walked out of the meeting because the factory couldn't guarantee a recycled percentage. Years later, she ended up in a meeting with the same factory again & they told her they had totally revamped their manufacturing process so they could meet Patagonia's demands, and they were selling the same newly-guaranteed processes to the much bigger company. I thought it was such an interesting story because I had no idea how much work they've done behind the scenes, and how it's spread out to bigger companies that don't necessarily put in a lot of effort on environmental stuff but are happy enough to follow along.
 

AmyPJ

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Even more reason to buy more Patagonia! (Well, other than to use the heck out of stuff.) But it's a bonus that I love their products.
I always lament how my grandparents (born prior to 1920) were the ultimate recyclers. And builders and makers of homemade. And how simple things were. And how much CRAP we have these days--becoming a parent made me even more aware of that when Christmas would come and the wee one would get ridiculous amounts of gifts that were just...junk! Plastic junk, no less.

Anyway, thread drift but extremely interesting nonetheless.
 

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