New ski edge bevels

[Wilhelmson]

I asked about the ski factories and their people and machines then it went off into race tune world. Factory tune is sort of a bland subject for May anyways, hopefully everyone learned something..... I usually just ski them how they come - and after learning that Kastle's factory base is less than once I went home, gently checked mine with a 1 degree base guide and marker (I only have a 1 degree), sure enough I've been skiing something considerably less than one all year. Edges came right around 2 degrees. Makes some sense since you could probably file a new base edge down to 1 from 0.5, and could go to 3 from 2 on the sides but not the other way around. Still, the 0.5 on the base could lead an unsuspecting buyer into thinking the skis are not the right ski for them, I'm sort of a hack so once I got used to it it was fine for me.

On the other hand and to op's point I think, the same skis came with jagged file marks on the side edges of the tips and tails. My first few days out on ice when I got them angled at speed the things would vibrate like a you know what, it was pretty funny actually. It seemed to help me get centered on the skis and make smoother turn; once I filed those down they were good.

So imagine someone demoing a new pair of skis with 0.5 base and jagged edges that rattle your spine. It could be enough to decide that the ski is not what they are looking for.

 

[Marker]

I've started checking the bevels on new skis to see if they are as advertised. I started because I made the mistake of believing the reported bevels for my Elan's and discovering that they were actually 1/3, not 1/2. Or the tune was that far off? Who knows. I skied them at 1/2 until they needed a base grind and then returned them to 1/3. In the interim, I had got some Rossi Hero Elite LT that were reported to be 1/3 and were by magic marker/diamond stone method if not the most polished of edges. A little TLC and they have been great fun as carvers. Surprisingly, my new Fisher Ranger 115 seemed to be between 2 and 3 side bevel (Fischers are reported to be 1/3), so I carefully took them to 3 since I only expect to use them a couple times per year (2.5 days this season on deep snow). I have good quality guides for the 1/3 tune to do maintenance as I usually let a shop set the edge bevels if I make a big change. My wife's Rossi skis were all 1/1, but had her Temptations taken to 1/2 then 1/3 (she loves this tune!) and her Sky HD to 1/2 (not so excited due to the width of the ski).

At Killington's demo day in December, all the skis I tried were pretty nice, some just nicer than others, except a pair of Volkl RTM 86. Not sure if it was the tune or the skis, but I expect the former. Like two nervous cats on my feet. Could not get them off fast enough!

 

[Ken_R]

I though this was super cool. This is the place I go to locally for my ski tuning needs.

 

[James]

I though this was super cool. This is the place I go to locally for my ski tuning needs.

View attachment 73488 View attachment 73489

Are they going to get Augment skis? They had Croc for a year or so.

 

[Ken_R]

Are they going to get Augment skis? They had Croc for a year or so.

I can ask them tomorrow when I drop by!

 

[Guy in Shorts]

With over a decade of quality tunes my shop finally gave me a bad tune earlier this season. Picked up the freshly tuned boards but after a couple of turns I took the ski off to see if it was broken. A friend suggested that I had forgotten how to ski. Shop admitted that they had a problem that resulted in a bad batch of tunes. Hopefully that will be one of the last times that I ever get on a poorly tuned ski.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I learned to tune and sharpen by hand over 45 years ago and at that time I also learned to sharpen tools to a razors edge with a simple file (no stones, no belt, no diamonds and more importantly no burrs). I learned to file. Yes, this an art that must be learned. I am really good though no master craftsman (wish i learn like my grandfather did, no joke).

This hands craftsmanship is slowly being lost with the reliance on modern technologies, as it takes skill and time. It is the man using the tools not the other way around.

My feeling in reading this thread that there are misconceptions as to what the purpose of the base bevel is and its importance, along with how a side bevel interacts with the base bevel. Let alone on the final finishing of the product (whole other thread).

Simply

Base bevel is the “detune” of yester-year, how-sensitive and quick a ski is.

How well a ski engages is determined by the NET edge angle, which is determined by the side bevel.

The best setting for longest life and most adjustability on a new ski is 0 base (easy to add bevel without life loss) and 0 side (again same reason).

Most s*#ty tunes are tunes that have burrs that have been left by improper tuning actions (and failure to clean them up).

There are some that have the inside track @Primoz @ScotsSkier @Atomicman (and a few others) that can talk about trends, setups and the reason behind them.

Remember what tuning is about and why, you’ll quickly understand good from bad.

 

[François Pugh]

Also a bit of base bevel provides better glide speed than zero base bevel.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I learned to tune and sharpen by hand over 45 years ago and at that time I also learned to sharpen tools to a razors edge with a simple file (no stones, no belt, no diamonds and more importantly no burrs). I learned to file. Yes, this an art that must be learned. I am really good though no master craftsman (wish i learn like my grandfather did, no joke).

This hands craftsmanship is slowly being lost with the reliance on modern technologies, as it takes skill and time. It is the man using the tools not the other way around.

My feeling in reading this thread that there are misconceptions as to what the purpose of the base bevel is and its importance, along with how a side bevel interacts with the base bevel. Let alone on the final finishing of the product (whole other thread).

Simply

Base bevel is the “detune” of yester-year, how-sensitive and quick a ski is.

How well a ski engages is determined by the NET edge angle, which is determined by the side bevel.

The best setting for longest life and most adjustability on a new ski is 0 base (easy to add bevel without life loss) and 0 side (again same reason).

Most s*#ty tunes are tunes that have burrs that have been left by improper tuning actions (and failure to clean them up).

There are some that have the inside track @Primoz @ScotsSkier @Atomicman (and a few others) that can talk about trends, setups and the reason behind them.

Remember what tuning is about and why, you’ll quickly understand good from bad.

Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're advocating brand new skis be delivered 0 and 0, not skied 0 and 0.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're advocating brand new skis be delivered 0 and 0, not skied 0 and 0.

Yes. Exactly.

Puts in the hands of good tuners be it self or shop, instead of the manufacturer. If a manufacturer can’t maintain 0,0 there are issues.

If anything might renew interest in having good ski shops locally by allowing simple add on sales.

 

[Tricia]

With over a decade of quality tunes my shop finally gave me a bad tune earlier this season. Picked up the freshly tuned boards but after a couple of turns I took the ski off to see if it was broken. A friend suggested that I had forgotten how to ski. Shop admitted that they had a problem that resulted in a bad batch of tunes. Hopefully that will be one of the last times that I ever get on a poorly tuned ski.

I had a similar experience. Evidently the tune shop changed something with a machine that wasn't "set" correctly.
In the end, they realized that they needed to hand check everything that came off that machine before it was reset.

 

[ski otter 2]

An ignorant question, forgive me. Didn't skiers all ski at 0/0 back when there were straight skis? Seems like I skied that for many decades, not sure. If so, one just gets used to that, especially with the base bevel. It becomes ordinary, adjusted for almost unconsciously, no big deal. Now, side bevel, that adds edge grip, so a real improvement. Not as sure about base bevel, though I religiously set mine now @ between .5 and 1, depending on the ski. And can feel the difference.

 

[oldschoolskier]

An ignorant question, forgive me. Didn't skiers all ski at 0/0 back when there were straight skis? Seems like I skied that for many decades, not sure. If so, one just gets used to that, especially with the base bevel. It becomes ordinary, adjusted for almost unconsciously, no big deal. Now, side bevel, that adds edge grip, so a real improvement. Not as sure about base bevel, though I religiously set mine now @ between .5 and 1, depending on the ski. And can feel the difference.

Yes we did. Additionally as things progressed side was added, I ran a 0/3 with no detune.

Base bevel currently is the detune of back then. I believe in base bevel (considering the shape and construction of current ski) as it controls the engagement point, but disagreed with detune as it effectively prevented engagement.

 

[Mp29]

I can’t see how you could set the base edges to 1/100th degree, I thought you were taking the ……. The Wintersteiger Trimjet Race which most race teams use will do +/- 1/10th. Svecom (formally Mantec) used to make a stand-alone base edge grinder, but I don’t know what it's capable of. Here it is in action:


The side edge grinder in the video, currently seems to be the WC SL and GS techs tool of choice. Daniele Pesamosca the guy in the video has steady stream of WC techs visiting his shop to collect them http://ratte.ski/

Looking for an edge tuner for my family's skis and more importantly my daughters race skis. This Ratte machine looks similar to Snowglide but has suction and dust containment built in which is a huge bonus in my view. I've been searching for more info and how to get one but it's kind of a black hole. Anyone have more info on these? Are they the world cup tuner of choice these days?

 

[James]

Looking for an edge tuner for my family's skis and more importantly my daughters race skis. This Ratte machine looks similar to Snowglide but has suction and dust containment built in which is a huge bonus in my view. I've been searching for more info and how to get one but it's kind of a black hole. Anyone have more info on these? Are they the world cup tuner of choice these days?

Snow glide has suction adapters to add on. No idea how they work.

Good luck with that Italian machine. It’s probably close to €5k, and getting it hee could be difficult since small Italian companies don’t seem interested in selling stuff. The power supply input is also 220v 50hz, so there’s another hassle.

Snowglide tools AF-C Vacuum adaptation

Find the best value and selection for Snowglide tools AF-C Vacuum adaptation. Fast delivery with DHL or GLS. Payments with PayPal, credit cards or bank transfer. 21 days right to return.

www.tesmasport.com

Here’s another small maker. Supposedly lower rpm for less dust throw.

ProTek Edge Bevel Grinder

ProTek Edge Bevel Grinder

protekskiracing.com

 

[Mp29]

Snow glide has suction adapters to add on. No idea how they work.

Good luck with that Italian machine. It’s probably close to €5k, and getting it hee could be difficult since small Italian companies don’t seem interested in selling stuff. The power supply input is also 220v 50hz, so there’s another hassle.

Snowglide tools AF-C Vacuum adaptation

Find the best value and selection for Snowglide tools AF-C Vacuum adaptation. Fast delivery with DHL or GLS. Payments with PayPal, credit cards or bank transfer. 21 days right to return.

www.tesmasport.com

Here’s another small maker. Supposedly lower rpm for less dust throw.

ProTek Edge Bevel Grinder

ProTek Edge Bevel Grinder

protekskiracing.com

I hear you!

 

[Dave Marshak]

I guess it all depends on your budget. Those Euro machines are $1500 and up, a battery Razor Tune is ~$800, a Swix EVO is half that. If I had a $1500 budget I'd just buy 2 pairs of skis and leave one in the shop while I was skiing the other.

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