New ski edge bevels

[Coach13]

I guess you have any ask the question one at a time. How long ago were the Head skis purchased AKA what vintage were they?

Sorry-All 3 were in the Monster series over the last 5-6 years or so.

 

[Uncle-A]

Sorry-All 3 were in the Monster series over the last 5-6 years or so.

Thanks, I am a bit surprised I would have guessed a lot older. I thought Head had solved some of the issues of their past.

 

[markojp]

Thanks, I am a bit surprised I would have guessed a lot older. I thought Head had solved some of the issues of their past.

FWIW, one pair of monster 88's I had were just a bit edge high near the shovel. I've owned a Titan (also a bit edge high near the shovel, but with a very nice structure) , a Rev 85 pro, monster 88, 98, and on my second pair of 88's... nothing really wrong with any of the others out of the wrapper, but they do ski better with some tuning, structure, and wax regiment love. Race skis (iSpeed Pro and iSL RD) both had excellent base structures, were dead flat, and just needed bevels set. .75 and 3 for both.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Yeah, an automatic machine with maybe 3-4 settings max is probably the way to go.
Grindrite?
View attachment 72604
I think that's the base beveling setup.

That is an edge beveler. It is set up for bases. Swing the base guide up and the flat side bevel guide clockwise (from above) and it does edges. It has analog bevel indicators and is very much in the hands of the operator to get a decent tune out of it.

 

[Jim McDonald]

My recent experiences (all but Monsters were brand new):
SR95, bought from a dealer well-loved by PugSkiers; factory tune, skied perfectly* from the go
SR107, bought from a large online dealer in Europe; badly railed, but skied perfectly after full workover by Fischer Pro tuning shop (1 base, 2 edge)
Monster 88, beaten up ex-Blister demo; taken immediately to Fischer Pro, and skied perfectly after full workover (1 base, 2 edge)
Enforcer 100, bought from Tokyo shop which prepped skis (1 base, 2 edge); skied perfectly from the go
Laser AX 183, bought from/prepped by race-centric shop recommended by two Pugskiers, not sure of bevels; skied perfectly from the go
Laser AX 175, bought from Stockli Test Center in Engleberg; factory tune, skied perfectly from the go (but will have Fischer Pro check bevels when i get them waxed)

*skied perfectly (that's like, my very inexpert opinon, man!)

 

[Philpug]

Sharpening edges and tuning is the same as washing your car and detailing it. It is the attention that goes into the process and the technician knowledge of the process. I have had "tunes" that were far worse than any bad out of the wrapper factory tune, the ski went from not enjoyable to ski to downright scary to ski...this was at industry demos where the brand was there to sell the product, this is not just a shop to consumer problem but an manufacturer to retail problem.

 

[François Pugh]

^^^^ I look at it more like wheel alignment.

 

[James]

Laser AX 183, bought from/prepped by race-centric shop recommended by two Pugskiers, not sure of bevels; skied perfectly from the go

Well you can pick your bevel now. Those had a roughly 1.5deg base. Stockli does 1.3, so to spec because with that svst measuring unit there's no way to tell to that level. They're now going to a 0.5! I've been told.

 

[Jim McDonald]

Interesting, and I am quite happy with my new 175 AXs so perhaps the standard Stockli bevel works for me.
OTOH, I'm also fine with the 1* base bevels on the repaired SR107s and my Enforcers & Monsters; maybe I'm just not too fussy .
I hope whoever has those 183 AXs is enjoying them.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Atomic mfg.


What could go wrong? ;-)

That video is from 2010, the factory has been extensively modernized since then. Back in 2010 their economic batch size was 200 pairs, they have now got it down to 40.

One of the things they did to improve quality was to install a computer system to monitor and control the finishing line air supply pressure, pressure variations affect the quality of the tune, previously they relied on somebody noticing that the pressure had changed.

They are currently digitizing the manufacturing process, if you look on some Atomic / Salomon skis you will see a QR-code.

It contains the ski’s production history, the materials used, the machines used and their setting and the names of the employees involved etc. If you could decipher the QR-code it would tell you what the factory tune was.

The next step is to use QR-codes to adjust the machine settings to those required for that particular ski. It will also then be possible for the customer to customize the tune via the Atomic Custom Studio https://www.atomic.com/en/custom-studio If the service machine manufactures play ball the service machine settings could be automatically adjusted by scanning the QR-code.

@Swiss Toni , do you know what machines are used for world cup speed ski tuning where base bevels are apparently specified to 1/100th degree?

http://www.tomefeteira.com/produtos.html

 

[James]

http://www.tomefeteira.com/produtos.html

Are you saying they're done by hand file and a guide?

 

[Swiss Toni]

I can’t see how you could set the base edges to 1/100th degree, I thought you were taking the ……. The Wintersteiger Trimjet Race which most race teams use will do +/- 1/10th. Svecom (formally Mantec) used to make a stand-alone base edge grinder, but I don’t know what it's capable of. Here it is in action:


The side edge grinder in the video, currently seems to be the WC SL and GS techs tool of choice. Daniele Pesamosca the guy in the video has steady stream of WC techs visiting his shop to collect them http://ratte.ski/

 

[James]

This is my understanding, done to 0.01deg and the techs don't touch the base bevel.

@Primoz , you around? What machines are they using to set base bevels in speed and are they really done to the 0.01deg ?

 

[textrovert]

Didn't check if this as linked in this thread already. I had saved a while back. Not sure how accurate it is, but seems like some research and shop/reps were consulted at some time for this-

https://thepisteoffice.com/index.ph...-manufacturers-edge-angle-specifications.html

 

[Primoz]

@James @Swiss Toni I don't know what machines are used to do this, as it's been a while since I was in any RD of ski companies for last time, and things changed since then... A LOT! But in WC, noone is doing base bevel by hand anymore. It's done in factory after ski get their base grind, and you actually can pick 1.23deg or 1.24deg base bevel for example. But this is about race skis for WC guys, not mass production skis, even if they would be "custom".

 

[Swiss Toni]

I don’t think it is possible to grind edge angles in 0.01 degree increments. The machine James was told about is probably the Wintersteiger Trim NC, which was introduced in 2007 and set new standards for precision and finish, but it could only be adjusted in 0.1 degree increments, see pages 16-20 www.wintersteiger.no/77-3126567869/Kantenschliff_E.pdf

It doesn’t seem to have been a commercial success and has been discontinued, according to Wintersteiger’s list of who uses what https://www.wintersteiger.com/en/Sk...kers/Ski-Service-Machines/References/Race-Lab only Stöckli has one, most of the other factory race teams currently use the Trimjet Racing.

 

[Dakine]

No way are these floppy machines achieving .01 degree precision, let alone accuracy.
.05-.1 degree I would believe but with any machine the operator is still the key piece.

 

[Uncle-A]

I don’t think it is possible to grind edge angles in 0.01 degree increments. The machine James was told about is probably the Wintersteiger Trim NC, which was introduced in 2007 and set new standards for precision and finish, but it could only be adjusted in 0.1 degree increments, see pages 16-20 www.wintersteiger.no/77-3126567869/Kantenschliff_E.pdf

It doesn’t seem to have been a commercial success and has been discontinued, according to Wintersteiger’s list of who uses what https://www.wintersteiger.com/en/Sk...kers/Ski-Service-Machines/References/Race-Lab only Stöckli has one, most of the other factory race teams currently use the Trimjet Racing.

I think the issue is that it is really 0.1 of a degree and some people have difficulty with the decimal system.

 

[cantunamunch]

I think the issue is that it is really 0.1 of a degree and some people have difficulty with the decimal system.

Even the 0.1 is, IMO, over-finessing one parameter among dozens.

 

[g-force]

Seven pages on what amounts to a ski tune just shows how important tuning is...This matter is a personal choice for Feel. Why not just do a check-file on your new ski's base/sides with your guides to see what you have bought ? Isn't this all really about finding a measurement of a tune you like for that partic'lar ski ?? Check-file your new shop-tunes too; just for measurement's sake... good 'ol magic-marker the edges.
And I pre-suppose everyone Posting Here on This Topic can actually side-edge-tune a ski... at least to keep it up between shop-grinds. If you can't do stone de-burrs and waxes and a side-file at home and you have to wait for another shop-tune; how many days on a dulll ski is that/year?
Ski Feels too 'tight'...? do your own base bevel at tip/tail - even a series of stones can relieve constipation.
Dint this thread start with a 'new ski tune' topic ? Dint this get confused with 'which shop to trust' ?
ps: Ice Masters may argue .3 .5 .7 bases with 4 or 5 degree side angles; but how many posters here can actually handle Total Hook-up ?