New ski edge bevels

[Eleeski]

For manufacturers even Mom and Pop ones, you are using stable wood (better be), and resins. If you don’t know set times.

This is not rocket science, this is give it shape (here a little knowledge is important), some graphics, use good materials glue (correct glue) together and grind.

The difference in the ultra performance skis is the selection of the ultra perfect spec’d materials and setup, everything else easy.

Heck even amateurs are building one of skis with success. Next new skier manufacturer.

There's so much more than that to building a ski that works. Materials do matter but "ultra spec" materials are more flash than substance (my boron waterskis perform almost the same as my carbon skis. Titanal is largely a marketing gimmick.). Wood does change over time, resins stiffen over time and do creep. (Keep your skis out of direct hot sunlight! Dark skis can heat up enough to soften the resin in intense sunlight. Your carvers should be summer stored with blocks to preserve the camber. Some issues can be related to storage and handling.)

Subtle things can hugely affect performance - like a tune. A base grind and frequent edge tunes are reasonable and normal maintenance. Applies to new skis - especially ones that are a deal from being last year's model. Of course, since I prefer a 0 base bevel, I will need a grind at some point. Still, I'll ski them out of the wrapper first - most skis ski fine from the factory.

Eric

 

[Big J]

No, that isn't life, it's hyperbole. I'm sorry to nip at your heels, but we're only on page two and this thread is already devolving into a 'throw brick and mortar under the bus'... so when this is done and everyone's out of business, where does anyone hope to get a good tune if you can't do it yourself? Do we figure amazon or backcountry.com will do it for us for free? Very very unlikely.

On the very bright side, many if not most reputable ski shops offer some sort of performance guarranty. Skis railed or just not skiing right? Take them back to the shop. They'll look and them, and if they're indeed railed, MOST shops in our area will take care of this gratis. Most shops I know in the area actually CARE that the customer has a great experience on the hill. Want to save money over the life of a ski? Learn how to iron wax your skis, do basic repair work, and keep a set of diamond stones to refresh your edges. We do tune clinics FOR FREE to help people learn. Skis go the shop only for big repairs, base grinds, and the like.

Many skis ski relatively well out of the wrapper. Many skiers don't know the difference. Some most certainly do. When a tune or 'out of the wrapper' ski is jacked, MOST shops will take care of this. It's much easier and cheaper to do a tune than to return,credit,resell, etc... a ski, and believe it or not, MOST brick and mortar stores really DO strive to provide good customer service.

In my humble experience, almost every ski I've owned in the past 6 years I've skied at least once, maybe twice out of the wrapper. They've been ok. I've almost always taken them back in and had a proper quality prep done (new base grind, set the bevels, start the wax regime with a couple good infra red cycles.

The base grind on Head race skis is very very good. The athlete/customer needs to set the edge bevels and work on the waxing. It isn't difficult, and it isn't that big a deal. A full hand custom race prep at our shop is $75.00-80.00 including wax. IMHO knowing the care and labor that our head tuner provides, it's a bargin.

What its the name of and where is your shop?

 

[markojp]

The post @James quoted from me was the end of the story on my seven attempts to tune a pair of V-Werks Mantras that were unski-able at first, from the tune and manufacture/prep. I finally tracked down, by luck, the Volkl rep who tuned their skis so well for SIA, including the pair of V-Werks Mantras I liked enough to buy. He told me the extra steps he took with that ski to get it right, and his advice worked. I'm glad the skis handle well now, whew, but I almost gave up along the way.

My poor experiences with base flattening machines/shops here in Colorado are matched by those of the above Volkl tech, and also many folks I've talked to while on the lifts (though by no means all; most skiers don't seem to notice their tune, just whether they like their ski or not, as others have said here.)

It was not an accident that some of the brands at SIA had skis that were poorly tuned, even when their livelihoods might benefit from it, maybe: when I asked where they'd had their skis done, the answers were with shops where I or others have had bad tunes - and often denials, also - repeatedly in the past.

(The skis that I found off with tuning at SIA were not so much the small indies, but rather some of the main brands and high end brands, in my experience.)

FWIW, we had some skis tuned in CO from a particular brand at a pnw demo this winter just after SIA. They were nearly unskiable.

 

[James]

FWIW, we had some skis tuned in CO from a particular brand at a pnw demo this winter just after SIA. They were nearly unskiable.

But, this isn't an issue...

 

[markojp]

For manufacturers even Mom and Pop ones, you are using stable wood (better be), and resins. If you don’t know set times.

This is not rocket science, this is give it shape (here a little knowledge is important), some graphics, use good materials glue (correct glue) together and grind.

The difference in the ultra performance skis is the selection of the ultra perfect spec’d materials and setup, everything else easy.

Heck even amateurs are building one of skis with success. Next new skier manufacturer.

So why are batches of race skis tested to find 'matching' and 'fast' pairs? If it's "easy" for you, I'm guessing you'd be a very valuable asset to any race room. In reality, any time natural materials are used and humans are involved in their choice and construction, there WILL be variations. Most end users in the general 85% of the skiing public will never feel the difference. Those who do will enjoy a well prepped and tuned ski. Imho, it's well worth the extra cost if you're one of that 10-15%.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Once the skis come out of the press the epoxy is fully cured, if not then there is something wrong with the process. The reason why some skis aren’t flat is likely due to the use of cores that haven’t been dried properly and to the use of wood block cores which are cheaper and more prone to cupping rather than cores made from rotary cut veneers.

 

[James]

Titanal is largely a marketing gimmick.

It's not. It's a brand of aluminum that bonds well.

It's extremely difficult to duplicate the properties of aluminum sheet. There's a reason race skis have metal.
There's also a feel to skis with metal that is really nice.
There's lots of attempts to eliminate metal for weight and often they end up planky as hell.

It's really difficult and expensive to make a carbon ski that's not twitchy, over reactive, or has a scratchy feel on the snow. Sounds like Dps has figured it out pretty well with their Alchemist line. Previous ones, no from the view of metal heads.

Kastle's original Fx line used thin sheets of Titanal. The skis weren't light in a touring ski sense, but for resort/tour it was a good compromise. Superb snow feel.

 

[Marker]

Once the skis come out of the press the epoxy is fully cured, if not then there is something wrong with the process. The reason why some skis aren’t flat is likely due to the use of cores that haven’t been dried properly and to the use of wood block cores which are cheaper and more prone to cupping rather than cores made from rotary cut veneers.

We use epoxy/resin blends with our films as adhesives and the adhesion improves with time as it cures at RT. Mildly elevated temperatures (50-60 C) increase the rate of cure. The equipment used to prepare the laminates at high temperatures (> 100 C) is too valuable to let one sample set for as long as it needs to "fully" cure, so it is allowed set outside the mold/laminator to finish. The epoxy groups and amine groups that react in the curing process do just fine at RT given time. I imagine the same is true for skis.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Most..and I mean 60%+ recreational skiers don't even know that skis have to be waxed...and if they do need waxed it might have to be done more than *ghasp* once a year!

Definitely. I bought my first pair of skis in my adult life when I was mid 20's. I had no idea it needed waxed. I discovered that the hard way on the traverse between the CA and NV side of Heavenly.

 

[cantunamunch]

It's not silly at all. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it wasn't an issue.
If they were so concerned, why is there not a system in the machine to monitor flatness? Where's the feedback loop?
It's a guy with a true bar afaik.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the feedback loop needs to extend into the ski by some manufactured structure - other than the edges - that will establish a datum plane any external machine can reference to. It would represent a large sunk cost to manufacturers and hopefully it happens in premium skis first.

 

[James]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the feedback loop needs to extend into the ski by some manufactured structure - other than the edges - that will establish a datum plane any external machine can reference to. It would represent a large sunk cost to manufacturers and hopefully it happens in premium skis first.

What do you have in mind?

 

[cantunamunch]

What do you have in mind?

An in-base sensor grid with an edge connection, and feedback loops similar to those used for wafer CMP.

 

[James]

An in-base sensor grid with an edge connection, and feedback loops similar to those used for wafer CMP.

Sounds good to me.
You still have the pressure issue pushing down on the stone. If there was a reading before and after the stone it would help, but is not one of the issues pressing on the center of the ski and the bowing under pressure across the width?

Meanwhile, there's now a machine that structures with a laser.

https://www.reichmann-skiservice.com/en/machinery/base-grinding/ls-1-race/

 

[oldschoolskier]

So why are batches of race skis tested to find 'matching' and 'fast' pairs? If it's "easy" for you, I'm guessing you'd be a very valuable asset to any race room. In reality, any time natural materials are used and humans are involved in their choice and construction, there WILL be variations. Most end users in the general 85% of the skiing public will never feel the difference. Those who do will enjoy a well prepped and tuned ski. Imho, it's well worth the extra cost if you're one of that 10-15%.

We are on the same page, the special skis require special attention, the rest should be fine given modern manufacturing protocols.

Would I notice the difference between race room skis and race skis likely not (not good enough and not enough slope time), but I do appreciate the difference between race skis and advanced skis.

 

[Tricia]

The Fischer Rep at Snowbasin paid attention to detail

 

[cantunamunch]

Sounds good to me.
You still have the pressure issue pushing down on the stone. If there was a reading before and after the stone it would help, but is not one of the issues pressing on the center of the ski and the bowing under pressure across the width?

Certainly.

Meanwhile, there's now a machine that structures with a laser.
View attachment 72530
https://www.reichmann-skiservice.com/en/machinery/base-grinding/ls-1-race/

Yes. That's the service Original + use for ski prep.

 

[Swiss Toni]

It's a brand of aluminum that bonds well.

It only bonds well because it’s anodized using phosphoric acid first, if unanodized aluminum alloy was used the bond would likely fail along the oxide layer.

We use epoxy/resin blends with our films as adhesives and the adhesion improves with time as it cures at RT. Mildly elevated temperatures (50-60 C) increase the rate of cure. The equipment used to prepare the laminates at high temperatures (> 100 C) is too valuable to let one sample set for as long as it needs to "fully" cure, so it is allowed set outside the mold/laminator to finish. The epoxy groups and amine groups that react in the curing process do just fine at RT given time. I imagine the same is true for skis.

Skis are hot pressed in specially built presses, the more modern ones have CNC controlled heating, cooling and pressure ramps. The adhesives used by the large manufactures are specially designed for making skis, once up to temperature they cure in a matter of minutes. Last year the Hexcel launched a new prepreg with an epoxy matrix system that cures in just 7 minutes at 120°C.

Remember skis are consumer products that are sold in a highly competitive market, time is money. The manufactures cannot afford to wait any longer than absolutely necessary for them to cure.

 

[CalG]

I don't know if ski lamination construction makes use of EPOXY adhesives, though I would assume so. (There are many other adhesive systems)

But....

Epoxy has a quality known as "Glass Transition Temperature" . That is the temperature at which the bond has NO stress. It is usually the temperature at which softening begins and strength declines. Very frequently it is also the temperature experienced during curing. Many epoxy systems are exo-thermic, with the actual temperature at the bond line at the time of cure higher than the measured ambient temp.

Residual stress is a chief reason why elevated curing temperatures are limited.


The bonds fail from within.

Trivia, but something the manufacturers keep in mind.

 

[Big J]

Sounds good to me.
You still have the pressure issue pushing down on the stone. If there was a reading before and after the stone it would help, but is not one of the issues pressing on the center of the ski and the bowing under pressure across the width?

Meanwhile, there's now a machine that structures with a laser.
View attachment 72530
https://www.reichmann-skiservice.com/en/machinery/base-grinding/ls-1-race/

Am I correct to assume that this process would not flatten a ski as a grind would? Is this to only add structure on a ski that is otherwise totally correct in other aspects? I am interested but would like to see some reviews and the cost of having it done and where to have it done.

 

[Big J]

The Fischer Rep at Snowbasin paid attention to detail
View attachment 72531

Tricia,
To me this information is very important. It would be nice to know the numbers for skis in order to establish what I like and do not like in regards to types of skis. If I demo a pair of skis and like how they ski I would like to know these numbers in order to decide what I prefer. I am a total novice at these numbers even though I have skied most of my life. Like you stated in another post I may have gotten rid of skis I did not like when the only problem with them may have been the tune. I have never had a new pair of skis tuned and I have purchased many. After having read all of this I have to take another look at perhaps getting them tuned. This type of information is another reason I am such a fan of Pugski and appreciate all that everyone has to offer. I fail to see how a person would know they might need something if they are unaware of it or how big an impact it has on what they are doing