New ski edge bevels

[Andy Mink]

I'm not even talking about a grind, if the bases are ok just hit the edges so they are skiable. If you pay $800 for new skis and they're so railed they need a $100 grind and tune, well that's life.

But if you buy something you should be able to expect it to work. If nothing else the edges should be consistant from tip to tail, both sides, both skis. Not everyone knows how to "hit the edges", nor should they have to on a brand new ski.

 

[Sibhusky]

^^ I agree. You expect your new car to work, your washer to produce clean clothes, your milk not to be sour. This shipping of skis not ready to ski bugs me. Fine, there's the 5% of the ski population who are going to change the skis anyway, just like all these folks who can't wait to change their new car, but most expect the product to work as advertised.

 

[James]

But if you buy something you should be able to expect it to work. If nothing else the edges should be consistant from tip to tail, both sides, both skis. Not everyone knows how to "hit the edges", nor should they have to on a brand new ski.

Ok. Tell that to the manufacturers.

The car dealer charges you to prep that new car. The car company charges you to transport it. You used to see it, now maybe it's lumped in like airline tickets.

It's rarely a "hit the edges" thing. If the base bevel is off, it needs a grind.
If the side edge is poor, they could quickly run it through a trim jet or massage it by hand. Most side edges have issues near the tip.

This is the state we're in. It's better than 10 years ago, but there's big problems. Even worse, a shop could screw up a ski. I've had rentals or my own skis rendered basically unskiable by shops.

Believe it, or not. Lots of people don't. Then end up selling a ski "they can't ski". Good chance it was the tune.

 

[Andy Mink]

Good chance it was the tune.

Yes. And along with selling comes the comments to others that "X ski sucks. I dropped $800 and it skis horribly". What company can stand that kind of word of mouth comment?

 

[Sibhusky]

Yes. And along with selling comes the comments to others that "X ski sucks. I dropped $800 and it skis horribly". What company can stand that kind of word of mouth comment?

This is what gets me, don't they look at the far reaching impact of a slapdash finish?

I had a friend who bought new skis, hated them. I nabbed them from her, but since she was talking about selling them, didn't want to go at them too hard by cutting sidewalls to increase edge bevel, going at the base to improve flatness (concave), etc., so I just did the best I could while keeping them looking pristine and new. She said they were far better, but at that point was so emotionally done with them, she still sold them. (I'm not even vaguely the same size, so couldn't take them off her hands to my advantage.)

I've hated new skis as well for a week until I got the tune issue identified and fixed and then suddenly loved them, just because of some burrs being removed.

 

[François Pugh]

....and related to that; why do people post here asking what the factory tune is?

Inquiring minds want to know what the manufacturer thought was the "best" tune for that ski. Sure tune is user-specific, but so is the ski marketed to a particular user. For example the factory tune on my WC SCs is 1 base, 3 side. I guess they want it to be responsive, but not demand a high skill and well fitted boot from all their customers, so as not to alienate half the folks who try them. I skied it that way until it needed a base grind, and then switched to 0.5 base, because I like the precision and quick response of the 0.5 base better for carving.

Some manufacturers used to care. My antique Kästles came with a factory finish on the base and edges (0.5, 2) that was very good. They even had a film covering the bases that I had to peel off. Those skis never skied as well as they did that first day. Maybe they cared too much and that's why they went under.

 

[James]

^ Hah, I had a Kastle ski from that era with the film on it. I didn't use the ski for 5-6 yrs. Couldn't get the film off, had to go down to the shop and they used a heat gun.
Volkl skis from the 90's - their cores were works of art. Poplar from their own forest allegedly. Some shops used to display them on the wall. My '96 ski was $735 list. That's like $1,200 today.

As for your "best tune" angles from the manufacturer. Eh, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. For some it's changing though. Since machines are way more precise, you can tailor a base bevel by 1/10 degree. According to Lindsey the Stockli rep, some of their newer skis are coming with just over a 1 deg bevel. 1.1 or 1.2 I forget.
Wcup is going to 1/100 a degree on base bevels. Tech's don't touch it anymore.

Yes. And along with selling comes the comments to others that "X ski sucks. I dropped $800 and it skis horribly". What company can stand that kind of word of mouth comment?

Well when a lot of them have issues, or it's random and spread out amongst most brands, no one company really takes the hit.
Brick and mortar shops are ideally placed to solve this. But, price competition ftom online and tuning competence make this problematic.

 

[Tricia]

Believe it, or not. Lots of people don't. Then end up selling a ski "they can't ski". Good chance it was the tune.

That happened to me back when I didn't know the difference.
I sold my Elan 888s to Greg Wilson from Louisiana at an ESA Aspen. I really figured I sucked. He tried to ski them after he bought them from me and had similar results.
@Philpug and @Chris Geib checked the tune and told him to go get them ground.
Nice base grind and resetting the edges made them a dream.

 

[CalG]

OK Who is going to organize a comprehensive survey of all the manufacturer's methods for new ski prep, tune and finish? It's the only way this group will be satisfied. ;-)

 

[ski otter 2]

I think there's an assumption on the part of some skiers that the factory tune bevel angles are "recommended" for a particular ski by the manufacturer. What is missing is that edge bevel angles should be matched to the skier's preferences/skills, not specifically to the ski. At least that's my belief.

To me, it's a little bit of both, skier and ski - and also intended use by that particular skier for that particular ski. I notice I like different edge and base bevels for different skis, depending on their usage and design, and even for different skiing styles I might want to play with. For instance, a 2° edge bevel has a smoother feel to it, while still feeling precise enough on the right ski, while a 3° edge gives a sharper, more grippy feel that is often nice to have too. Again, a 0.5° underfoot base bevel can be great for a precise slalom ski especially, quick edge to edge with quick translation from boot to ski. At the other extreme, a 2° base bevel can be great on a freestyle ski, giving more of a forgiving, playful feel to a ski that is either used mostly slarving off piste or in powder, or that benefits from a looser, or more trickable feel (say, a pair of Faction C.T. 3.0). Just wanting a change of pace can be reason enough to use different base and edge angles.

 

[oldschoolskier]

If I’m buying a top end ski, I would reasonably expect it to be tuned to a basic high end condition ready to go. Not different from buying a Lamborghini that performs. If I want it to perform more I take it to Underground Racing and pay extra. This is what I do when I have a specific race tune done by paying extra.

When buying a regular ski I expect it to run and stop without issues. This is the correct basic tune that sets the starting point.

IMHO any excuse that this is not possible in our modern times just gives manufacturers an excuse to do crap jobs and get paid good money to do as little as possible.

 

[ski otter 2]

The post @James quoted from me was the end of the story on my seven attempts to tune a pair of V-Werks Mantras that were unski-able at first, from the tune and manufacture/prep. I finally tracked down, by luck, the Volkl rep who tuned their skis so well for SIA, including the pair of V-Werks Mantras I liked enough to buy. He told me the extra steps he took with that ski to get it right, and his advice worked. I'm glad the skis handle well now, whew, but I almost gave up along the way.

My poor experiences with base flattening machines/shops here in Colorado are matched by those of the above Volkl tech, and also many folks I've talked to while on the lifts (though by no means all; most skiers don't seem to notice their tune, just whether they like their ski or not, as others have said here.)

It was not an accident that some of the brands at SIA had skis that were poorly tuned, even when their livelihoods might benefit from it, maybe: when I asked where they'd had their skis done, the answers were with shops where I or others have had bad tunes - and often denials, also - repeatedly in the past.

(The skis that I found off with tuning at SIA were not so much the small indies, but rather some of the main brands and high end brands, in my experience.)

 

[CalG]

fat dumb and happy
I've never been on a pair of "unskiable" snow skis due to improper tune.

I did once return a pair of new skies that I purchased and later discovered one ski had one edge ground obtuse for about 10 inches from the tip. Call it an over aggressive detune. ;-) Now I look carefully when I buy. But they still were skiable, and actually the defect wasn't that big an issue. They still turned both ways, just a bit less grip on ice.
Local B&M shop, no issues with the replacements.

 

[James]

IMHO any excuse that this is not possible in our modern times just gives manufacturers an excuse to do crap jobs and get paid good money to do as little as possible.

Well I agree, but what's the answer? This is the way it is right now. At one time you had the ski mags which probably could have considerable influence on an issue like this. That probably stopped in the early 2000's if it even made it past the millenium.

We have an industry that constantly talks about titanium in their skis when it's aluminum. They never get called on it even by industry insiders. Most are like, oh that's funny.
So, it's just another sloppy thing.

The manufacturers of the very expensive tuning machines seem to have forgotten about the end product. Seems they focus on it can do x,y,z in such a time. I don't see the systemization of quality control to the end product. So you end up with highly complex machines that really need a highly qualified operator. And more than 1 because they can't work all the time. Labor is tough in ski towns. You train someone for a few years and then they go off and want to like get married, or a job that pays more, or live where the people are.

 

[GregK]

I too find it crazy that every new ski needs to be stone ground to be flat. Don’t find as large a variance in edge bevels although those usually require a touch up too. Edge work doesn’t phase me as much as flatness as I don’t have a stone grinder at home. Yet.......haha

Interesting that people are bringing up conditions of new cars compared to new skis. As a high end detailer for a living for 30 years, I usually spend 6-15 min hours cleaning/polishing etc new vehicles and I’m often wet sanding brand new exotics to bring them up to an acceptable level.
The one exotic dealership I do work for does lots of alignments and I’ve yet to see one car out of hundreds that doesn’t need some tweaking to be within even factory range spec. Had my brand new car checked and all 4 wheels were off spec.

So not many things not up to their full potential from the factory it seems these days which is sad. At least stone grinds are cheap and so are files. Lol

 

[ski otter 2]

Like length and width dimensions I think factory tune specs should be easily accessible. Not necessarily printed on the top sheet but easily found.

A number of ski shops have asked the ski brands to print the tune edge/base bevel specs on the skis, or at least to print them in their retail or tech annual manuals.

Not sure they can, on the skis. And a look at the published manual specs below give some sense of why not, and why I'm so often having to check and adjust the edge bevels on new skis, if I'm expecting them to fit nicely into the whole number angles on my edge tools.

Can you imagine seeing these specs (with tolerances built in) printed on retail skis?

If Atomic and Salomon are any indication, most skis are made to such manufacturer tolerances, including for base and edge bevels, rather than a fixed pair of specs in degrees (say, 1/2). This year, Atomic and Salomon did put their specs with tolerances in their Alpine tech manuals (18/19, published 6/10/18). If you look at the stuff, you get things like the following: (whew)

From Atomic:

Redster series 87.5° ± 0.05° 0.8° ± 0.3°

Cloud series 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Vantage x83/80 87.5° ± 0.5° 0.8° ± 0.3°

Vantage x75/77 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Vantage wmn x 80 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Vantage wmn x 74/77 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.3° ± 0.3°

Vantage 107ti/97c 87.5° ± 0.5° 0.8° ± 0.3°

Vantage 97ti/90/86c 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Bent Chet series 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Backland 85/78 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Backland 95 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.3° ± 0.3°

Backland UL 65 87.5° ± 0.5° 0.8° ± 0.3°

Backland 85/78 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Backland 117/107 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.0° ± 0.3°

Backland wmn 102 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.3° ± 0.3°

Park & Pipe series 87.5° ± 0.5° 1.3° ± 0.3°


And from Salomon:

Quest family 85 base side 1.3°→ 1.5°, edge side 1.5°→ 2.0°

92 base side 1.3° → 1.5°, edge side 1.5°→ 2.0°

99 base side 1.3° → 1.5°, edge side 1.5°→ 2.0°

106 base side 1.3° → 1.5°, edge side 1.5°→ 2.0°

118 base side 1.3° → 1.5°, edge side 1.5°→ 2.0°

S/Race GS & GS FIS base 0.8° ± 0.3°, edge/side 2°→ 2.5°

S/Race pro SL base 0.5° ± 0.3°, edge/side 2°→ 2.5°

S/Race SG FIS base 1° ± 0.3°, edge/side 2° → 2.5°

S/Race Pro 182-175 base 1° ± 0.3°, edge/side 2° → 2.5°

S/Max base 1° ± 0.3°, edge/side 1.5°→ 2°

XDR base 1.3° ± 0.3°, side/edge 1.5°→ 2°

XDR 80ti, 84ti, 88ti base 1.3° ± 0.3°, side/edge 1.5→ 2.0°

XDR 76-78-79,

Aira 76-78-79,

S/Race Rush, S/Max Blast, S/Race Slot, base 1.0 ± 0.3°, side 1.5°→ 1.2°

 

[tball]

So what's the point of demoing skis when the tunes are likely to be so bad?

 

[Andy Mink]

So what's the point of demoing skis when the tunes are likely to be so bad?

Exactly. The idea of demos is to get someone to LIKE your skis. If nothing else, I would think the reps would have them tuned really well so they can make people want to BUY the product. Many people may not know why they don't like a ski but they don't. If the tune is good at least that's one variable out of the equation.

 

[markojp]

I'm not even talking about a grind, if the bases are ok just hit the edges so they are skiable. If you pay $800 for new skis and they're so railed they need a $100 grind and tune, well that's life.

No, that isn't life, it's hyperbole. I'm sorry to nip at your heels, but we're only on page two and this thread is already devolving into a 'throw brick and mortar under the bus'... so when this is done and everyone's out of business, where does anyone hope to get a good tune if you can't do it yourself? Do we figure amazon or backcountry.com will do it for us for free? Very very unlikely.

On the very bright side, many if not most reputable ski shops offer some sort of performance guarranty. Skis railed or just not skiing right? Take them back to the shop. They'll look and them, and if they're indeed railed, MOST shops in our area will take care of this gratis. Most shops I know in the area actually CARE that the customer has a great experience on the hill. Want to save money over the life of a ski? Learn how to iron wax your skis, do basic repair work, and keep a set of diamond stones to refresh your edges. We do tune clinics FOR FREE to help people learn. Skis go the shop only for big repairs, base grinds, and the like.

Many skis ski relatively well out of the wrapper. Many skiers don't know the difference. Some most certainly do. When a tune or 'out of the wrapper' ski is jacked, MOST shops will take care of this. It's much easier and cheaper to do a tune than to return,credit,resell, etc... a ski, and believe it or not, MOST brick and mortar stores really DO strive to provide good customer service.

In my humble experience, almost every ski I've owned in the past 6 years I've skied at least once, maybe twice out of the wrapper. They've been ok. I've almost always taken them back in and had a proper quality prep done (new base grind, set the bevels, start the wax regime with a couple good infra red cycles.

The base grind on Head race skis is very very good. The athlete/customer needs to set the edge bevels and work on the waxing. It isn't difficult, and it isn't that big a deal. A full hand custom race prep at our shop is $75.00-80.00 including wax. IMHO knowing the care and labor that our head tuner provides, it's a bargin.

 

[markojp]

Yes. And along with selling comes the comments to others that "X ski sucks. I dropped $800 and it skis horribly". What company can stand that kind of word of mouth comment?

A friend had a Head FIS iSL RD prepped by a shop out of the area. He mentioned how hard it was to ski and asked if I'd take them for a run to see what I thought. I have a pair of my own and find them very versatile, lively, and no problem to ski. I took three skates toward the lift on my friend's skis and knew something was very wrong. The shop that did the prep had spoiled the lovely factory base and put a very aggressive base structure that would NOT allow the ski to slip sideways at all. It was horrifying. The shop that did the prep also reset the edge bevel twice not understanding that the base grind was the problem. I took my friend's skis to my tune guy. He reground them and they ski absolutely fantastic, as they darn well should. In this case, the problem had nothing to do with the manufacturer.