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Jim McDonald

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This sounds like a cheesy boondoggle to me, offering lagniappe to GIs to sell macmansions to yuppies.
I'd bet the small, crappy snow "ski area" will allow free rides (or a cheap one-ride ticket) to DV season pass holders to sell the real estate as having DV access.
And the rank-and-file military will be left as the only ones actually paying (albeit cheap rates) to ski the few mediocre runs (aside from a few O5s and above or the occasional fighter jock bachelor with the disposable to afford a DV season pass).
 

New2

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After taking a closer look at the land Extell owns, I can see some real possibility. The 400-skiable-acre draft proposal might make some sense if it's part of DV and just exists to sell real estate, but as a stand-alone ski area they could do more. Looks like around 3,000 vertical feet. The bottom half would be very snowmaking-dependent, as discussed, and even the upper sections could use snowmaking as insurance against weather. A summit higher than any of Deer Valley except the top of Empire. What could be the best learner's zone in the Wasatch up above (and potentially connecting to) Ontario & Homeward Bound at DV. Beginner terrain lower down the mountain, too, to provide options depending on weather. Nice steepish high-elevation terrain comparable to Sultan & Mayflower lifts at DV. South-exposed steeps that can be "conditions permitting" expert terrain, kind of like the Canyons side at PCMR. All in all, it seems like it could be built into a decent mid-size mountain and a great choice for families looking for a more affordable option in the Wasatch. Not the best Utah has to offer, by and large... but better, bigger, more consistent skiing than anywhere in the US east of the Rockies and capable of competing with mid-market destinations in the West (Purgatory, Nordic Valley if it expands, Sierra-at-Tahoe, Tamarack, Angel Fire, etc.).

Re: the military angle, 100 subsidized rooms with decent subsidized skiing or a 15-minute bus ride to PCMR where a military season pass is less than a day ticket at DV... doesn't sound too bad. I shared lift rides with several young sailors and marines enjoying their first-ever ski season at Mountain High and Snow Summit in Southern California... Mayflower Mountain has the potential to offer them a better, more reliable ski experience that feels like even more of a "getaway," at a price point that many service members could manage.
 

raisingarizona

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After taking a closer look at the land Extell owns, I can see some real possibility. The 400-skiable-acre draft proposal might make some sense if it's part of DV and just exists to sell real estate, but as a stand-alone ski area they could do more. Looks like around 3,000 vertical feet. The bottom half would be very snowmaking-dependent, as discussed, and even the upper sections could use snowmaking as insurance against weather. A summit higher than any of Deer Valley except the top of Empire. What could be the best learner's zone in the Wasatch up above (and potentially connecting to) Ontario & Homeward Bound at DV. Beginner terrain lower down the mountain, too, to provide options depending on weather. Nice steepish high-elevation terrain comparable to Sultan & Mayflower lifts at DV. South-exposed steeps that can be "conditions permitting" expert terrain, kind of like the Canyons side at PCMR. All in all, it seems like it could be built into a decent mid-size mountain and a great choice for families looking for a more affordable option in the Wasatch. Not the best Utah has to offer, by and large... but better, bigger, more consistent skiing than anywhere in the US east of the Rockies and capable of competing with mid-market destinations in the West (Purgatory, Nordic Valley if it expands, Sierra-at-Tahoe, Tamarack, Angel Fire, etc.).

Re: the military angle, 100 subsidized rooms with decent subsidized skiing or a 15-minute bus ride to PCMR where a military season pass is less than a day ticket at DV... doesn't sound too bad. I shared lift rides with several young sailors and marines enjoying their first-ever ski season at Mountain High and Snow Summit in Southern California... Mayflower Mountain has the potential to offer them a better, more reliable ski experience that feels like even more of a "getaway," at a price point that many service members could manage.

They developers bought the land for 1 billion dollars. That’s no pocket change. I imagine there’s tax incentives or government funding with creating a resort with big military benefits.
 

tball

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This is primarily a real estate play. The reason that you're purchasing a condo or home in this development is the access to Deer Valley. Without access to Deer Valley, this development doesn't work.
Seems like a great investment right next to DV. Arrowhead Ski Area similarly developed as a separate ski area long ago and is now part of Beaver Creek. It was mostly residential and didn't have the large commercial/convention aspect of this development. For those complaining about Deer Valley being crowded now, just wait until all these additional beds are available so nearby.
 

John Webb

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The whole military connection seems odd too. Since when does the military decide to participate in the development of a ski resort so that soldiers can afford a skiing holiday? I understand the tax scheme as described in the Park Record but overall it doesn’t really add up. So clearly I’m missing something.

If I'm not mistaken Hill AFB & the military have a ski lodge near Powder Mt so why would they have any interest in a pricey upscale venture near DV?

Edit: a bit mistaken ! Oops, partly true but the Hill house was at SnowBasin -not Powmow.
also one of the links said it closed just before the 2002 olympics.
 
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Steezus

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The Jordanelle run at DV does not open when DV opens. Often the temperatures are not right for snow making until later in December and the run is hard to maintain in the spring time as even in big snow years the base of Jordanelle mostly gets rain or very slushy snow. There is absolutely no powder skiing to be had that low, which is why none of the trees are gladed in Deer Crest.

DV is aware that fully automatic guns will have to be used to take advantage of even small windows to make snow and not ruin it with water as soon as the temps raise.

As for how long it would take to open this area, Deer Crest was cut, graded and had two lifts installed in one summer/fall season without issue. The biggest issue is obtaining a slot for a lift manufacturer to fab and install the lifts.

The skiing up higher near Mayflower could be really good, but that side is all that is left of DV on a powder day that isn't super crowded since it doesn't get as much snow and is serviced by a slow triple. A second base area for everyone coming from Heber, Orem, and Provo would ruin that side IMO. I am out of the loop for the last year at DV, but this expansion was previously being pushed as something DV would run as far as the skiing goes, but it sounds like things may have changed at this point according to the article. Projects like these are slowly chipping away at the unique character that Park City once had. I wish Utah would stop trying to expand at any cost without regard to the consequences.
 

Wasatchman

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well, to my surprise construction of this new resort continues. Now I think there is no chance it is up and running in 2021 but the military hotel is currently under construction. Tunnels giving pedestrian access to the opposite side of the highway are under construction.

The entire area is seeing a construction boom that to my surprise is unabated by coronavirus. Lots of residential happening across from the new ski area. I still think this new area will be linked to DV, but plans look like they are indeed going forward.
 
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Tricia

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well, to my surprise construction of this new resort continues. Now I think there is no chance it is up and running in 2021 but the military hotel is currently under construction. Tunnels giving pedestrian access to the opposite side of the highway are under construction.

The entire area is seeing a construction boom that to my surprise is unabated by coronavirus. Lots of residential happening across from the new ski area. I still think this new area will be linked to DV, but plans look like they are indeed going forward.
Can you get some pictures?
 

Wasatchman

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Here are some pix. Significant work leveling out what I assume is the new village area.

Meanwhile, base of PCMR going gangbusters with numerous developments.

Covid isn't slowing things down in PC one bit.
 

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Wasatchman

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Here are some pix. Significant work leveling out what I assume is the new village area.

Meanwhile, base of PCMR going gangbusters with numerous developments.

Covid isn't slowing things down in PC one bit.
 

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Nathanvg

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New video: and new 2023 opening date https://www.kpcw.org/post/extell-donates-property-mayflower-military-hotel#stream/0

My quick take is that the progress gives me confidence they will open but the scale of the skiing is tiny compared to the marketing fluff. Lodging sales are clearly driving the investment. Maps of the ski runs are constantly changing but the below image appears to be on the upper end of what's projected. It's all skiing between 8200' and 6400' and really only the lift in the upper left is what I'd call a "real" ski lift, the rest just mostly traverse the hills to get you to Deer Valley from the new lodging. One other note that is not obvious in the pictures is that both long lifts go up then down then up again. The result is that you can't ski to the base of the lift from the top without ridding another short lift.

The video states that Mayflower owns some of the land Deer Valley operates on and used that leverage to trade a 199 year lease to get access from Mayflower to Deer Valley. That was a smart move by Mayflower.

I'd sum up the project as adding one 1100' vertical lift with decent runs but low elevation (poor snow) plus a lot of lodging. That assumes that they actually build it all. There is a lot of risk that only one or two of the lodging-to-Deer-Valley lifts gets built.


1599315910389.png

interactive map with all major lifts roughly plotted. Blue shading is 18+ degree slopes (blue and steeper pitches roughly) Link to interactive version of map below.
1599316732249.png
 
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Vcize

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So when you say they traded for access to DV, does that mean you could ski DV with a Mayflower lift ticket?
 

Nathanvg

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So when you say they traded for access to DV, does that mean you could ski DV with a Mayflower lift ticket?
They didn't get into specifics on the video. At a minimum they will allow you to ski across the boundry. How the ticketing will work, who knows but if I was Mayflower, those details would have been critical to the agreement such that a joint ticket was no additional cost or a small increase (e.g. the altabird ticket).
 

Wasatchman

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@Nathanvg thanks for the link to the video. Wow, is that video full of hyperbole and cheese. I laughed out loud several times while watching it. Seeems like it will mostly be a real estate play despite the grand talk about the actual skiing.

In particular, the commentary by the older gentleman, Stuart Adams, Chair of Utah Senate, is hysterical.
 
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Wasatchman

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A Wall Street Journal article on Mayflower Resort

A $2 Billion Ski Development Near Park City Creates an Avalanche of Controversy https://www.wsj.com/articles/mayflower-mountain-resort-utah-extell-11601569414

The article is behind a paywall but delves into the many challenges of this development. The developer is more known for Manhattan skyscrapers and the CEO is not a skier. Interestingly, Extell is trying hard to partner with DV on the project but so far they are uninterested. My guess is the issue is DV would want full control and would be far less ambitious in scale. Additionally, DV wouldn't want to share economics as they probably believe they would be contributing far more with their existing resort than they would get in return for a partnership in this type of a project.

The article noted how locals are also skeptical. While the article noted many challenges one that i was surprised that was not included in the article is that a good portion of the area suffers from lack of snow and would require extensive snowmaking.

Additionally, the article states MIDA is key as to why Extell is taking on this ambitious and some say foolhardy project. Interestingly, because of MIDA the project won't generate much in property tax for the county.

I also learned from the article that the military hotel will not be exclusive military. It will be 200 discounted rooms for military within a broader hotel. I had assumed the military hotel would be military only.

Finally, the article did mention Covid has caused delays in the project including financing. The financing for the first hotel to be built has fallen through and so they're working on trying to get new financing for it.

So even as there has been construction that has been occurring this past summer, the article does a good job putting in perspective the considerable hurdles and hence it's still not obvious whether the project will truly get off the ground.

When I saw all the construction this summer, I assumed the developer had to be much further along than they really seem to be based on the article. Especially as the financing on the hotel had dried up and they have to get that lined up again.

At the end of the day, the article fuels more of my conviction that this ultimately will be much more of a real estate play than actual skiing to the degree the project takes off.

And as far as the developer's new opening date target of 2023. That seems incredibly unlikely at this point.
 
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