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new racing ski base wax prep question

tube77

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Here's what I am doing starting from this summer for new racing skis prep for a junior racer.
I totally understand it's a definitely overkill at his age but I would like to explore and learn how to mix and match.

1. Base clean BP 88 hot scraping : iron in -> scraping off (1~2 cycles).
2. BP 88 base saturation : iron - cool (over night) - iron - cool without scraping wax off in between (repeat 5~6 times)
3. BP 88 was scrape off, brush, brush, brush.
4. CH6 hard wax : iron in, scrape off, brush
5. CH7 soft wax : iron in, scrape off, brush
6. Moly fluoro : iron in, scrape off, brush
7. CH3 powder along the edge : just iron in
8. Non fluoro (equivalent to LF/HF) wax of the racing day : iron in, scrape off, brush

Then I will just do one cycle of CH waxes as a training wax once a week.

So here are some questions.

q1. In step 2, as far as I read BP 88 can be repeatedly ironed in without scraping off. Is this right? Could I do the same thing for CH or LF/HF equivalent waxes as well?

q2. What's an overkill or totally unnecessary step from 1 to 8? Maybe moly except on the dirty snow?

q3. Fluoro wax is banned. Does it mean that the Moly fluoro conditioner is also banned although it's not a final layer of the wax of the day? What about the fluoro wax overlay?

q4. I have toko digital wax iron. I used to set the iron temp lower than the proper wax iron temp when I had an cheap analogue dial type iron because of the iron temp fluctuation. So this digital iron looks to keep the iron temp stable. Do you set the iron temp always at the designated temp or a few degrees lower? I am concerned if 140C for cold waxes might burn the base by iron? Is this absolutely no no or can it be possible?

Thank you in advance!
 

razie

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Imho it's critical and perhaps more important to first make sure the base is flat ;) and clean it well of contaminants, strip sidewall and do your own edges etc - after flattening it: wipe it down with alcohol and brush well with a steel and then a brass brush, then hot scrape with a soft wax until clean. I use the softest wax I have for hot scraping, bp88 I think it's medium hard.

As for waxing, go nuts :geek:. Spend as much time and moneys as you want.

I would re-heat every layer 2-3 times and out about 10 layers if you have no hot no . No need to wait more than 20 minutes between reheats...

Fluoro waxes are banned period - that's FIS though, always check with the local racing org for specific regulations .

Moly or other anti static base is not a bad idea, but other than that, I just keep the ski freshly waxed. I think the point of waxing is not to make it fast, but to make it consistent and safe :daffy:
 

snwbrdr

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I would just use hydrocarbon warm temp wax for hot scrape, like Swix CH-10 (or inexpensive Racewax Red). BP-99 is Swix's softest base prep wax.

For the CH3, as long as you keep the iron moving enough to melt the wax, you should be fine about not damaging the base.

If you desire to stay Fluoro free, Toko has a shop grade "Base Refreshener with Moly" that you can use in-lieu of BP-88, and you don't have to do the separate Moly step.

Not sure the rationale of steps 4 & 5. You can just pick a wax, and do the melt & reheat step a few times (like you plan on with the BP wax). Then on race day use the appropriate temperature range wax for the conditions.

iirc, usually you want the Fluoro on as the top coat of wax, not buried under hydrocarbon wax. Fluoro Overlays are technically banned, as is all waxes with Fluoro. (I stocked up on RaceWax FluoroMax last year)
 

snwbrdr

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q4: Set at the recommended temperature:

1. Observe if it's smoking, it may be the previous wax that is smoking... if it is smoking, back it down a few degrees
2. Observe the trail of hot wax after the iron, it should be a few inches trailing the iron, so make adjustments as necessary.
 
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tube77

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I would just use hydrocarbon warm temp wax for hot scrape, like Swix CH-10 (or inexpensive Racewax Red). BP-99 is Swix's softest base prep wax.

For the CH3, as long as you keep the iron moving enough to melt the wax, you should be fine about not damaging the base.

If you desire to stay Fluoro free, Toko has a shop grade "Base Refreshener with Moly" that you can use in-lieu of BP-88, and you don't have to do the separate Moly step.

Not sure the rationale of steps 4 & 5. You can just pick a wax, and do the melt & reheat step a few times (like you plan on with the BP wax). Then on race day use the appropriate temperature range wax for the conditions.

iirc, usually you want the Fluoro on as the top coat of wax, not buried under hydrocarbon wax. Fluoro Overlays are technically banned, as is all waxes with Fluoro. (I stocked up on RaceWax FluoroMax last year)

Thank you so much!
 
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tube77

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q4: Set at the recommended temperature:

1. Observe if it's smoking, it may be the previous wax that is smoking... if it is smoking, back it down a few degrees
2. Observe the trail of hot wax after the iron, it should be a few inches trailing the iron, so make adjustments as necessary.

It's really nice tip that I haven't gave much thought about it..
Thank you!!
 
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tube77

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I would just use hydrocarbon warm temp wax for hot scrape, like Swix CH-10 (or inexpensive Racewax Red). BP-99 is Swix's softest base prep wax.

For the CH3, as long as you keep the iron moving enough to melt the wax, you should be fine about not damaging the base.

If you desire to stay Fluoro free, Toko has a shop grade "Base Refreshener with Moly" that you can use in-lieu of BP-88, and you don't have to do the separate Moly step.

Not sure the rationale of steps 4 & 5. You can just pick a wax, and do the melt & reheat step a few times (like you plan on with the BP wax). Then on race day use the appropriate temperature range wax for the conditions.

iirc, usually you want the Fluoro on as the top coat of wax, not buried under hydrocarbon wax. Fluoro Overlays are technically banned, as is all waxes with Fluoro. (I stocked up on RaceWax FluoroMax last year)


Step 4&5, I was thinking about the sandwiched layer of hard-soft waxes for better longevity.
I intended to create,

soft(BP) - hard - soft - hard/soft overlay wax of the day

I think I can skip the step #5..
Thank you!
 

hbear

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I don't find the layering works as you'd expect.
Better to hammer the bases with a softer/warmer temp wax to cycle. Then just use whatever temp wax you need. I've moved to liquid waxes for this.
Moly won't really be benefical unless you are skiing in very dirty snow (jr skiers will not notice anyways), and CH3 for the edges of the base is not necessary. I get the idea, but it doesn't work as expected.
Honestly just better do a hot wax scrape and rewax each day or 2 (depending on type of snow). My daughter's skis get waxed everyday (or might stretch to 2 if the course was on the soft side).
If your jr is skiing on bullet ice different story but then you'd want a hard wax on the whole base; not just the edges.

No need for flouro or anything crazy, know many sucessful racers at Nor-Am and Europa cup that don't use flouro unless it's for speed events. Even then unless you have a pair prepped and waiting at the start gate, that flouro layer is gone after a very short distance. So if jr does warmup runs or inspection it's gone. For SL, I know WC techs that have used flouro maybe 5x over a decades long career.

I have a very dominant young racer and just keep it basic with hydrocarbon. The key is sharp edges......and brushing. No sense spending big $$ on wax that won't impact performance.
 

sparty

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IME, the BP88 will saturate the base substantially better than the CH waxes will. After initial ski prep (base grind, sidewalls trimmed and smoothed, edges set to the correct bevel, and the mess from all of the above cleaned up), I'd be looking to go through at least 4-5 BP88 cycles before moving on to a CH series wax (or whatever the similar wax is in your preferred lineup).

Once you've done that, wax-cycling with a hard CH wax will (again, IME) provide better base protection and increase longevity of your daily wax application. This is probably less important skiing with more natural snow in the base (i.e. mid-season Rockies) versus a truly race-prepped hill (or normal East Coast conditions). I've found that a ski prepped with BP88, then CH4, will survive far more runs on highly abrasive surfaces than one without the CH4 cycle. YMMV.

hbear mentioned the liquid waxes as a day-of wax; I've found them incredibly helpful in keeping base burn away when I can't find the time/energy to wax every day. I can throw a coat of liquid wax on skis that I'm using to coach after a few hours of drills and freeskiing and they survive the weekend without base burn, barring exceptionally cold/abrasive snow; otherwise, it's virtually impossible around here to get more than one day out of a pair of skis without getting base burn on the edges.
 

sparty

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I have a very dominant young racer and just keep it basic with hydrocarbon. The key is sharp edges......and brushing. No sense spending big $$ on wax that won't impact performance.

Quoted for truth. I'm also quite willing to point out to my athletes that, most likely, they're going to give up more on the first turn than they'd ever gain in chasing the perfect wax. Pick a reasonable hydrocarbon wax, make sure your edges are sharp and you've done your brushing, and use the time saved to get enough sleep for race day.
 

Primoz

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I'm "slightly" late to the game, so probably you have everything solved in month that took me to reply :D
Anyway... as of currenlty, fluoro is not banned yet, so you will be good whatever you do for this season. What is going to be next season is to be seen. But if it's going to be banned, I would seriouslly suggest you not to play with it, even during base preparation time. There will be some limits that you will not be allowed to cross, as main point is, to be still able to use old skis that are saturated with fluoro. But it's going to be nearly impossible for some privateer to figure out how much you can put on fluoro during base preparation not to cross those limits, so best would be to simply stay away, unless you will have access to some of those test machines, which you most likely won't have.
Otherwise, it depends what those skis are for. If it's SL/GS skis, then do steps 1-3 (step 2 should be actually repeated way more then 5-6 times... my normal thing when I was still in World cup was more like 30 cycles all together... first few cycles with base after that mainly with HF (yeah on WC money is not really much of issue when it comes to waxes)). And if it's SL/GS skis, put wax of the day on and you are good to go (assuming edges were already done).
If it's SG/DH (or especially XC skis), then after step 3, you need to decide if skis are cold or warm skis. If it's cold skis, you never come close to ski with warm waxes or vice versa. If money is not an issue, and as long as fluoro ban is not there, go with cold LF/HF waxes, otherwise cold CH for cold skis, and warm for warm skis. Several cycles, with scraping and brushing every 2 or 3 cycle. After some 5 or 6 cycles, you are ready for wax of the day (and overlays).
Now is that overkill? For junior races absolutely, but on one side it's fun doing this (unless you have 50+ pairs to do, but I guess you are paid for that if you have so many), and wax companies need to earn some money too :D
 

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