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New gear for returning skier (beware: long post)

redwoodsrp

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Hi all. I have some Newbie questions from an old returning skier. After more than 25 years almost total absence from the slopes, my feet have got the itch again. I'm planning a skiing holiday (10 days alpine in Switzerland and 7 days ski touring in Lyngenfjord, Norway) and I need new gear (skis, bindings, boots, poles, the works). Unfortunately, I am several generations out of date as far as ski design and technology is concerned, haven't got a clue how to evaluate and narrow down my options and am hoping that you guys and gals can lend a helping hand.

Some personal stats: male, age 61, 173cm (5'7”), 67kg (147lbs?), physically active, good fitness level. Used to be an expert skier with a rock-solid, but very, very old fashioned technique/style (think 1960s and seventies: feet locked together, strong separation of upper and lower body, active poles, lots of loading and unloading of skis etc).

What I like doing best on skis: a ton of tight, perfectly regular turns down the fall-line, anywhere, anytime. Whether I'm on a beginner's groomed slope, down a steep mogul run, in virgin powder country or amongst trees and rocks, I tend to grab every opportunity to squeeze in another turn if the opportunity presents itself, as well as the occasional jump and fooling around, skiing backwards, 360s and stuff, but no serious acrobatics. I don't usually ski very fast or aggressively, focus is more on finesse and playtime than power, speed and adrenalin.

So, given that background and my mixed alpine and touring holiday plan, I have a primary, very fundamental question: should I buy an all-mountain/freeride ski with touring or hybrid boots and a hybrid binding (I'm thinking Fritschi Tecton 12 or Marker Kingpin), or would I be better off with an all-mountain/freeride ski with alpine boots/bindings, and just renting a complete touring rig for the trip to Norway, and maybe for other occasions? How good are modern hybrid boots and tech bindings for downhill purposes, and do you think they would be adequate/satisfactory for the type of skiing I do?

Second question is which type/width of all-mountain/freeride skis, and what length: from what I've been reading, I think something around the 95mm might be suitable (something like Head Kore 93, Salomon MTN Explore 95, Black Diamond Helio, Nordica Enforcer 93, Faction Candide 2.0?) They might all be quite narrow by today's standards, especially off-piste, but are still loads wider (especially the tips) than anything I used to ski on. I don't really know how to think about length, given the increased width/surface area and different rocker/camber of modern skis. Would something like 180cm do the job?

Sorry about the excessively long post; there are just so many variables in this and I'm starting from scratch! Many thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

RP:wave:
 

Uncle-A

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Welcome to PUGSKI. - I would not buy a ski for one vacation but buy a ski for the home mountain that I plan to spend most of my days. If you plan to get back to skiing and have a one ski quiver it should be for that location. What would be your home mountain and maybe we could make a better recommendation?
 

Andy Mink

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I was in a similar situation to yours. Several years out, several generations of tech behind. That said, I agree with @Uncle-A. Gear up for YOUR mountain and the conditions you are most likely to see, not the ones you wish you would see. Skis would be secondary to boots. You can always rent or demo skis; boots are much more personal and a good fitting boot will make a non-perfect ski work. The best ski in the world won't be too great if your boots don't fit.

Salomon/Atomic is coming out with what appears to be a bomber hybrid binding (https://forum.pugski.com/threads/exclusive-daron-rahlves-and-the-atomic-shift-mnc-13-binding.7581/) that is supposed to be very good for both climbing and resort skiing. Again, what will you do most of the time?

I have a pair of Tecnica Cochise 130 boots that have a walk feature. I use it in the parking lot and it makes walking easier. How well they work in the back country I can't say. They also have tech soles so you can use the tech bindings with the pins. Not sure what they're called.
 

Varmintmist

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I came back after about 16y. I was OK, not as good as you sound like you were. I will tell you what I was told.

Get boots. Get good boots. Get boots that fit. If there is one place to not skimp it is boots.

You are going to have to ski the new skis before you can make a good call as to what you like. Rent some. Do a seasonal rental where you get the boots, you will probably get a discount. The new skis turn differently. Once you get the feel you will find they take a lot of the talent out of it.
 

Slim

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Modern hybrid boots are definitely getting quite good at marrying both worlds. To a lesser degree the same goes for skis. Since you are not heavy, and keep speed well controlled, I bet you could be happy on them.

What sort of touring are you talking about?
If it’s spring time, and a multi day hut trip with a focus on covering ground, then many of those skis would probably be a bit on the heavy and wide and long side. If that’s the case, I would rent the touring skis.
If it’s backcountry skiing with a focus on th descents, then a 50/50 ski seems more feasible, especially if you don’t need high speed stability on the down, and ultra lightweight on the up.
 
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redwoodsrp

redwoodsrp

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Welcome to PUGSKI. - I would not buy a ski for one vacation but buy a ski for the home mountain that I plan to spend most of my days. If you plan to get back to skiing and have a one ski quiver it should be for that location. What would be your home mountain and maybe we could make a better recommendation?
Thanks for the welcome ogsmile Unfortunately, I don't really have a "home mountain" where I'll do most of my skiing (I guess if I had one, I wouldn't ever have given up skiing for so long ...) I've lived in New Zealand for the past 30 years, and I'm several hours drive away from the good NZ ski areas. There is a very small field (Rainbow) about 1.5 hours drive away where I'll probably ski a few days a year; the skiing there will be mixed, a bit on the one groomed run, a bit in the crud to the side of it, a bit in a couple of small back-country bowls. It's all not very steep, the snow - if there is any - tends to be on the soft and warm side. Because it's not much of a ski sports region, there is only very limited access to high quality rental and demo equipment. I wish I could spend a few days just demo-ing skis and bindings before I buy, but I just don't have that luxury. :( So, most of my skiing will be done on holiday somewhere else in the wide world, and there may or may not be good rental gear available; which is why I'm looking for a kind of "Swiss Army Knife" set of gear which I can take anywhere and which, though it may not be perfect for the local conditions of the day, will always be competent and good fun to ride.

In terms of the trade-offs I'll have to make:
  • I'll gladly give up some ultimate float in deep fluffy powder for the ability to safely take a ski down a narrow, steep, icy chute;
  • I don't need high-speed performance and control, but I care about precision and responsiveness doing tight and nimble footwork at lower speeds;
  • Off-piste, I'll probably encounter much more chopped up powder and crud than perfect virgin powder slopes; the better my gear can handle such conditions, the less time I have to spend on crowded groomers;
  • For touring, I'd probably sacrifice some uphill performance (light weight) for downhill versatility and performance. (I should add here that I have never actually done any touring and skinning; but I am well used to fully self-contained multi-day bush and alpine hiking with a heavy pack.)
  • As a general principle, I don't want to sacrifice reliably strong and competent performance in adverse snow and terrain conditions for ultimate performance in ideal conditions.
Doest this make any sense to you?
 

Andy Mink

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Thanks for the welcome ogsmile Unfortunately, I don't really have a "home mountain" where I'll do most of my skiing (I guess if I had one, I wouldn't ever have given up skiing for so long ...) I've lived in New Zealand for the past 30 years, and I'm several hours drive away from the good NZ ski areas. There is a very small field (Rainbow) about 1.5 hours drive away where I'll probably ski a few days a year; the skiing there will be mixed, a bit on the one groomed run, a bit in the crud to the side of it, a bit in a couple of small back-country bowls. It's all not very steep, the snow - if there is any - tends to be on the soft and warm side. Because it's not much of a ski sports region, there is only very limited access to high quality rental and demo equipment. I wish I could spend a few days just demo-ing skis and bindings before I buy, but I just don't have that luxury. :( So, most of my skiing will be done on holiday somewhere else in the wide world, and there may or may not be good rental gear available; which is why I'm looking for a kind of "Swiss Army Knife" set of gear which I can take anywhere and which, though it may not be perfect for the local conditions of the day, will always be competent and good fun to ride.

In terms of the trade-offs I'll have to make:
  • I'll gladly give up some ultimate float in deep fluffy powder for the ability to safely take a ski down a narrow, steep, icy chute;
  • I don't need high-speed performance and control, but I care about precision and responsiveness doing tight and nimble footwork at lower speeds;
  • Off-piste, I'll probably encounter much more chopped up powder and crud than perfect virgin powder slopes; the better my gear can handle such conditions, the less time I have to spend on crowded groomers;
  • For touring, I'd probably sacrifice some uphill performance (light weight) for downhill versatility and performance. (I should add here that I have never actually done any touring and skinning; but I am well used to fully self-contained multi-day bush and alpine hiking with a heavy pack.)
  • As a general principle, I don't want to sacrifice reliably strong and competent performance in adverse snow and terrain conditions for ultimate performance in ideal conditions.
Doest this make any sense to you?
Take a look at these. I've been skiing on the Foundation Cassiar 95 lately and find it to be a good balance if you have a one ski quiver. New for 18-19 will be a Foundation Cassiar 87 which I REALLY like. See here: https://forum.pugski.com/threads/preview-2019-dps-foundation-cassiar-87.7560/
 
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redwoodsrp

redwoodsrp

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Take a look at these. I've been skiing on the Foundation Cassiar 95 lately and find it to be a good balance if you have a one ski quiver. New for 18-19 will be a Foundation Cassiar 87 which I REALLY like. See here: https://forum.pugski.com/threads/preview-2019-dps-foundation-cassiar-87.7560/
Thanks for that link, and also the one above about the Salomon MNC-13 binding; they both sound very interesting and pretty much the type of thing I'm after.

Also, the point you made earlier about prioritising good boots makes a lot of sense. I'm lucky in that I don't have very complicated or sensitive feet; so maybe the right starting point is trying to fit a hybrid boot like the Atomic Hawx Ulta XTD 130. If that works, I can either buy a hybrid binding like the Salomon or Fritschi, or a straight-out alpine binding in combination with rental of touring skis when required.
 
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redwoodsrp

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Modern hybrid boots are definitely getting quite good at marrying both worlds. To a lesser degree the same goes for skis. Since you are not heavy, and keep speed well controlled, I bet you could be happy on them.

What sort of touring are you talking about?
If it’s spring time, and a multi day hut trip with a focus on covering ground, then many of those skis would probably be a bit on the heavy and wide and long side. If that’s the case, I would rent the touring skis.
If it’s backcountry skiing with a focus on th descents, then a 50/50 ski seems more feasible, especially if you don’t need high speed stability on the down, and ultra lightweight on the up.
The tour is probably a bit like a multi-hut tour, in that we're based on a boat in Lyngenfjord, (Norway, north of arctic circle) from where we do day-treks up a mountain (from sea-level to between 1000 and 1400m altitude), and then return to the boat overnight. Cruise to a different bay and different peak, rinse and repeat 6 times :) Snow conditions that time of the year will be powdery and possibly windblown at higher altitudes, with more corn and slush near sea level. I should add here that I've never skinned up a mountain in my life, but I've got plenty of hiking experience (multi-day, with heavy packs), and I think alpine ski touring might well be a thing I'll enjoy a lot.
 

Slim

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The tour is probably a bit like a multi-hut tour, in that we're based on a boat in Lyngenfjord, (Norway, north of arctic circle) from where we do day-treks up a mountain (from sea-level to between 1000 and 1400m altitude), and then return to the boat overnight. Cruise to a different bay and different peak, rinse and repeat 6 times :) Snow conditions that time of the year will be powdery and possibly windblown at higher altitudes, with more corn and slush near sea level. I should add here that I've never skinned up a mountain in my life, but I've got plenty of hiking experience (multi-day, with heavy packs), and I think alpine ski touring might well be a thing I'll enjoy a lot.


OK, that’s not what I was thinking of as a spring hut-to hut tour. I was thinking spring outside of the arctic ogsmile, so warm temps, corn and ice instead of powder. Also what I meant with a hut-to-hut trip was that it’s backpacking, you need to carry all your stuff with you, so weight and effiency matters a lot. You are doing day tours, so your pack can be lighter, so a bit heavier boots or skis is less of a deal. The other thing is, on a long multi day route, the focus is usually on covering distance, more than on the skiing. In your case it sounds like the skiing is more of a focus.

What does the trip organizer recommend for skis/boots set-up for this trip? If they don’t say it on their website, I bet they will if you ask them. Then see how close that comes to skis you’d be willing to ski inbounds.

For reviews, check the review section here on the site, especially focused on the more resort type skis.

Further sites you might want to check out:

Wildsnow.com
Blistergearreview.com (they have a category of 50/50 skis and boots)
Proskilab.com (ditto)
Backcountryskiingcanada.com
 

Slim

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Re: Boots:
One option that I think sounds intriguing it is having two liners (especially if weight on an airplane is an issue):

Thinner (=lighter and roomier and more flexible) liner for touring
Thicker (=tighter fit, stiffer, warmer) liner for inbounds.

There is some discussion of that on Blister about the Atomic Ultra XTD boots.

Also, if you are thinking of using one pair of boots for both, give some consideration to sole rocker:
If you want to be able to use the boots in alpine style binding (ie non-pin) you will want a fairly flat sole. However, no matter how good the range of motion of the cuff is, a flatter sole is not nice for walking on the ground.
If all your touring is on skis, no problem. But many ski touring routes involve stretches of walking with skis on your pack, or making a ski depot, and scrambling to the top of a peak.
Conversely, a heavier rockered sole will severely limit the number of compatible bindings.
 
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James

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The tour is probably a bit like a multi-hut tour, in that we're based on a boat in Lyngenfjord, (Norway, north of arctic circle) from where we do day-treks up a mountain (from sea-level to between 1000 and 1400m altitude), and then return to the boat overnight. Cruise to a different bay and different peak, rinse and repeat 6 times :) Snow conditions that time of the year will be powdery and possibly windblown at higher altitudes, with more corn and slush near sea level. I should add here that I've never skinned up a mountain in my life, but I've got plenty of hiking experience (multi-day, with heavy packs), and I think alpine ski touring might well be a thing I'll enjoy a lot.

Wow, sounds amazing. I was in Norway last summer for a little bit. You're way north .
Touring specific boots can be very odd. Lots of ramp- heel higher than toe, lots of forward lean. But much lighter and easier to walk and skin in. Sounds like you'd want a touring boot for this trip? As opposed to like the Lange XT which is really alpine oriented and for some minor touring. Since you're relatively light a touring boot could be just fine. That's difficult if you can't see them amnd try them on. Where would you purchase boots? In Switzerland?

Modern hybrid boots are quite good for downhill use.
 

Wilhelmson

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My friend is married to a Norwegian and their family hut to hut tours include nude saunas with the whole family - awkward.
 
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redwoodsrp

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OK, that’s not what I was thinking of as a spring hut-to hut tour. I was thinking spring outside of the arctic ogsmile, so warm temps, corn and ice instead of powder. Also what I meant with a hut-to-hut trip was that it’s backpacking, you need to carry all your stuff with you, so weight and effiency matters a lot. You are doing day tours, so your pack can be lighter, so a bit heavier boots or skis is less of a deal. The other thing is, on a long multi day route, the focus is usually on covering distance, more than on the skiing. In your case it sounds like the skiing is more of a focus.

What does the trip organizer recommend for skis/boots set-up for this trip? If they don’t say it on their website, I bet they will if you ask them. Then see how close that comes to skis you’d be willing to ski inbounds.

For reviews, check the review section here on the site, especially focused on the more resort type skis.

Further sites you might want to check out:

Wildsnow.com
Blistergearreview.com (they have a category of 50/50 skis and boots)
Proskilab.com (ditto)
Backcountryskiingcanada.com
Good idea to ask the tour organiser (why didn't I think of that myself? Duh..:P) ; I've sent them an email. But while I was on their website, I checked out again a short video of the tour, this time looking more at the participants' gear rather than the fabulous landscape. I saw both light touring and heavier hybrid boots, and quite a few people were on frame bindings, so weight is clearly not a primary consideration.

Many thanks for your list of other websites; I know Blistergearreview (most of the ski candidates I listed in the OP came from there), but the others are new to me: more hours to be happily idled away browsing :golfclap:.
 

James

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Honestly, I would repost this asking specifically about touring versus at boots. And associated skis. Light touring skis are kind of crappy. The title makes one think very differently what it's about.
Frame binding is a good option. Just not a Marker Duke, which really isn't a frame.
Soloman was coming out with a brand new binding this year to challenge Kingpin and be better. There was a thread about it here. @Philpug ?

It's great you're going to Switzerland first. You should break the gear in and get used to it. Usually you can rent touring gear there too to try.
Do you have a link to the video? Post it or embed it in the new thread, and or here. Would get people interested. Pretty amazing trip! I recall Chris Davenport doing something like that about 5 yrs ago. Prob on youtube.
 
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redwoodsrp

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Honestly, I would repost this asking specifically about touring versus at boots. And associated skis. Light touring skis are kind of crappy. The title makes one think very differently what it's about.
Frame binding is a good option. Just not a Marker Duke, which really isn't a frame.
Soloman was coming out with a brand new binding this year to challenge Kingpin and be better. There was a thread about it here. @Philpug ?

It's great you're going to Switzerland first. You should break the gear in and get used to it. Usually you can rent touring gear there too to try.
Do you have a link to the video? Post it or embed it in the new thread, and or here. Would get people interested. Pretty amazing trip! I recall Chris Davenport doing something like that about 5 yrs ago. Prob on youtube.
Thanks James; I wasn't sure where to post this since I am both an old hand as far a skiing as such is concerned, but also a total beginner about any modern equipment as well as ski touring. Of course it is not particularly helpful that I am trying to find the ski equipment equivalent of what the Swiss call an "egg-laying woolmilkpig", i.e. something which does everything.

I''ll buy the new gear in Switzerland, possible with a rent-to-buy option; I just found a shop very close to my homebase there which specialises in Freeriding/touring equipment, and apparently offers most of what they sell also as a rental option. Seems like a good starting point. While breaking in the new gear, I'll also take the opportunity to do a beginners course in AT (learning skinning technique etc), and will probably also spend a day with a good instructor to update and adapt my downhill technique to modern skis. Should be fun! :)

I'm curious about your comment that frame bindings are a good option. I had a brief look at various Marker, Salomon and Diamir models but when I realised that they all lift the boot very substantially (35-45mm!) above the ski I essentially dismissed that option; surely that must feel weird, a bit like skiing on stilts? Or have I got that completely wrong?


As requested, here is (if I've done this correctly) an embedded link to the Lyngenfjord tour:


Cheers, RP
 

Andy Mink

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Thanks James; I wasn't sure where to post this since I am both an old hand as far a skiing as such is concerned, but also a total beginner about any modern equipment as well as ski touring. Of course it is not particularly helpful that I am trying to find the ski equipment equivalent of what the Swiss call an "egg-laying woolmilkpig", i.e. something which does everything.

I''ll buy the new gear in Switzerland, possible with a rent-to-buy option; I just found a shop very close to my homebase there which specialises in Freeriding/touring equipment, and apparently offers most of what they sell also as a rental option. Seems like a good starting point. While breaking in the new gear, I'll also take the opportunity to do a beginners course in AT (learning skinning technique etc), and will probably also spend a day with a good instructor to update and adapt my downhill technique to modern skis. Should be fun! :)

I'm curious about your comment that frame bindings are a good option. I had a brief look at various Marker, Salomon and Diamir models but when I realised that they all lift the boot very substantially (35-45mm!) above the ski I essentially dismissed that option; surely that must feel weird, a bit like skiing on stilts? Or have I got that completely wrong?


As requested, here is (if I've done this correctly) an embedded link to the Lyngenfjord tour:


Cheers, RP
That looks pretty nice!
 

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Thanks James; I wasn't sure where to post this since I am both an old hand as far a skiing as such is concerned, but also a total beginner about any modern equipment as well as ski touring. Of course it is not particularly helpful that I am trying to find the ski equipment equivalent of what the Swiss call an "egg-laying woolmilkpig", i.e. something which does everything.
I'm curious about your comment that frame bindings are a good option. I had a brief look at various Marker, Salomon and Diamir models but when I realised that they all lift the boot very substantially (35-45mm!) above the ski I essentially dismissed that option; surely that must feel weird, a bit like skiing on stilts? Or have I got that completely wrong?

Cheers, RP
Cool! But of course you are buying the gear for many years, not this one trip.

Check Tyrolia frame bindings too.

Standheight of frame bindings is not a really the big issue. Racers use riser plates all the time, doesn’t slow them down. I have frame bindings and when I compared a friends ski of similar width and length with Look Pivots (lowest bindings avaible) I could feel the difference, but on firm snow there is probably more of a benefit than a drawback.
I also have a friend who has had the same pair of skis for 14 years, and skis them in the resort and on tours in the alps, with Fritschi Diamir bindings. Has done so happily for alll those yers and he is a decent skier.

The drawback of frame bindings is more in climbing efficiency: With each step you are lifting the entire frame and binding up and down. The other drawback in efficiency is that the pivot point is far below your foot, like walking on platform shoes. The final drawback might be that the pivot point is usually further out front than on tech bindings, but this varies by binding.

Then there is a potential drawback in downhill mode, in that there is more potential for play between boot and ski. This depends a lot on the specific binding, and on how bothered you are by that. I have no issues, as mentioned, I didn’t notice a more direct connection with the Pivots.


If you are considering holding out for the new Salomon SHift binding, be aware it might not fit the more rockered soles of some AT boots. The Warden MNC doesn’t.

If you are considering any combo of touring boots and bindings, please read this study:

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/38177

And here you can find a blog discussion with the author, where he clarifies and details a lot:

https://www.wildsnow.com/21152/ski-binding-release-avalanche-safety/


PS Mods, should this not go in hardgoods?
 

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Well frame bindings are closest to alpine in downhill performance. Stand height- yeah there's plenty of skis with plates and risers. In general, racing skis and carving skis will have plates or risers. Wider skis no. The overlap is a gray area and some of the lack of plates on wider skis I think is saving weight, money, and just tradition. Though for moguls You don't really want height I would think.

The problem with the whole experiment is your coming from straight skis to shaped, and want to go into touring stuff. An egg laying sheep indeed.

I can't give you specific advice on the touring stuff but I've seen the situation from a distance. In general, there are two camps. The light to superlight, who skew everything to the uphill speed, and those who really care more about the down. Of course there's a middle.
But it can get a little religious like in fervor.
I would stay away from the really light boots and skis and bindings. Downhill performance can be total crap. Doesn't look like the uphill on your trip is all that much or lengthy that you should skew uphill.
Skiing has gotten a whole lot more fun. Once you adjust and learn the new equipment, you may not just stay in a narrow corridor making hundreds of short turns.
 

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Thinner (=lighter and roomier and more flexible)
Thicker (=tighter fit, stiffer, warmer)
Not always true, Some of the stiffer (non race specific) boots for next season are made with the new plastics like Grilamid. There are boots that are low and high volume based upon foot shape some will use the design to create room and others use it to make the boot more efficient. YMMV.
 

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