• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Need to move forward...lean, delta, lifts, oh my!

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
That's it in a nutshell, but the backstory is important and long.

I have multiple alpine skis. They are all close enough in setup that switching between them isn't an issue. My boots are Lange ZJ+ (I'm no racer, but I have VERY low volume feet).

My issue, which has opened my mind up to all sorts of further questions, is that when I switch to my new AT gear, its almost like I've never skied before. I can't get my feet behind me. When I had my old AT gear, Dynafit bindings and Dynafit boots, the problem was the opposite. That setup is known to have a dramatic ramp angle and lean. They were fine, except for the overburden on the quads, but after multiple days, I couldn't jump back on my alpine gear. I fixed them with BD shims under the toes.

So, I knew what I needed to do, and it worked. I put a heel lift and a rear spoiler in my AT setup, and low and behold, I can ski again.

My first question is this, what's the right amount of forward? I feel like I would be more chargey if I was more forward on everything including my slalom skis, but that's going to make my AT conundrum even worse.

My second question is, when do you choose a heel lift, forward lean, or change in the binding delta, making the big assumption that one you can, and two, you still have range left.

Lastly, where does boot flex play into this? I remember watching some USSA stuff that claimed that most junior racers are in boots that are too stiff limiting ankle flexion and their ability to get their feet back. That was confirmed to me by boot fitter who has worked with MANY of the US Ski team over the years. We seem to err on the stiff side, but it certainly seems, with modern skis and technique, where edge angle rather than driving the tips with the tongues is king, that erring on the soft side would be better. Assuming that to be the case, can one go too soft? Both my boots are rated 110 and feel similar.

The AT boot is a La Sportiva Spectre and the AT bindings are Hagen Core.

If you've made it this far...THANKS!!!
 
Last edited:

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,483
Location
Breckenridge, CO
Forward lean is part preference, part physics. You need to be able to balance over your foot in a neutral stance. Define neutral stance. I can't but someone here can and will, I'm sure. Lifts are typically for dealing with an inability to flex your ankle without a boot on. The lift will position your ankle in the boot so that you can attain some range of motion in the ankle. Delta corresponds to forward lean in that more delta moves your COM forward.

As soon as you change one of the factors I mention, you have to consider the other factors and what effects the one change made to the other two.

Think of what you need as developing proper range of motion and the ability move your COM forward, center and back, not as what is the right amount of forward lean, lift or delta. Forward lean, lifts and delta affect your ability to move your COM. It is getting the combination right that is the crux of the matter to being able to pressure the ski either forward, neutral or back. Skiing isn't static; it isn't just about 'being forward'. You need to be able to move your COM around the ski to ski dynamically. Lean, lift and delta manage how you can move your COM depending on your specific physiological situation.

I'm not a bootfitter but the above is what I've gleaned from the pros I work with.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
I think that's a much better way of wording it. When I know I need my COM forward, I feel blocked. An ex-eurocup racer friend of mine likes to say "pull your feet back," when we are working on establishing higher edge angles carving, but they won't go.

I was thinking there are probably some static COM references to work around and/or that my boot might be too stiff, even though by race standards it is pretty soft.
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,483
Location
Breckenridge, CO
You have to look at your range of motion before you consider the boot. If you can't bend your ankle, you can't expect to bend it while it's in a plastic cast.

The fitters in the shop I work in will tell stories of how little ROM a person has and the various things they do to try to compensate for it. The foot is very complicated. If one part of it is less than ideal it can play havoc with the functioning of the rest of the foot.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
I've been told by two excellent boot fitters (Mark Elling and Bob Olsen) that it's fine.
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,483
Location
Breckenridge, CO
I've been told by two excellent boot fitters (Mark Elling and Bob Olsen) that it's fine.

If you ROM is fine, then adjusting things with lean, lifts and delta is the way to go, I guess. What have Mark and Bob said about adjustments to your boots?

In re-reading your original post you ask "what's the right amount of forward (lean)?" The correct answer isn't a number but a position. I think you get that at this point, though. I'm clarify for the reader that uses this thread to learn.

I'm not a bootfitter, but I play one on the internet.
 

MRT

Putting on skis
Masterfit Bootfitter
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Posts
47
Calf size and boot sole length play into how much forward lean you may need. A specific amount of forward lean adjustment will move your knees and position your COM just behind
your met heads. This "specific" amount will be dictated by the size of your calf at the top of the liner and how long your boot sole is.

If you have a sufficient amount of dorsiflexion, you may or may not need a heel lift, depending on the amount of heel / toe differential your boot board provides.

What is your calf circumference at the top of the liner?
What is your boot sole length?

Mike
 
Last edited:

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Posts
4,225
Location
Ontario Canada
Neutral is being balanced fore and aft (side to side of course)...the simple version.

The complex version is how you ski in both stance and technique also defines how your neutral stance appears and how your setup must be. Same result just deferent positions.

As to the difference between AT setups and performance setups along with how they relate and vary, I’m all ears.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
BSL is really close to 305 (give or take a mm from memory) on both. I'll get the calf measurement tonight.

Mark is 4 hours away and Bob is 6.5. I finally got the boot fit figured out, but never got around to this next level discussion. They are both so far away, that it makes that sort of discussion really difficult. There isn't a competent bootfitter closer.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,216
The first thing that I look at when I am working with advanced skiers in private lessons is stance - both the distance that their skis are apart and amount of flex in the hips, knees and ankles. We look for the combination that provides the most ROM in their ability to edge a ski. In 90% of cases their stance is too narrow, and more flex is needed in hips, knees and ankles. In some cases it is an entirely new movement pattern that requires a summer of yoga and specific drills to unlock.

Most are in boots too stiff (I'm a fast twitch, former national caliber sprint athlete, 168 pounds, and ski in 120 flex). For a quick on-hill fix I carry trail maps and stuff them in the back of the cuff, in between the liner and shell for my private instructional guests who need more hip, knee and ankle flex.

It has nothing to do with being forward. I don't vibe on being forward. It limits your options and your skis will tend to behave unpredictably. It has to be with being centered on your skis and finding the position that allows you the most ROM, thereby providing you with the most options in your skiing.

When you find that magic place, when you are centered, you tend to use small muscle groups to make minute stance adjustments, and skiing becomes effortless, regardless of conditions or terrain.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
"When you find that magic place, when you are centered, you tend to use small muscle groups to make minute stance adjustments, and skiing becomes effortless, regardless of conditions or terrain."

Nice words.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
Marty, I agree wholeheartedly. I keep unlocking my nomenclature. I don't want to be forward all the time. The words I'm really looking for is that I want to be in a position that I can get my feet behind me (or my COM ahead of my feet if you will), when I want to.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
Also, I found a test for ankle flexion, the wall drop. They aren't tragically tight, likely why neither boot fitter remarked on it after assessing it, but not awesome either. They say anything below 20cm could benefit from increasing ROM through calf stretching. My drop was 17cm.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,216
Marty, I agree wholeheartedly. I keep unlocking my nomenclature. I don't want to be forward all the time. The words I'm really looking for is that I want to be in a position that I can get my feet behind me (or my COM ahead of my feet if you will), when I want to.

Right on. I totally get it. This is a tough medium to discussed a nuanced subject matter in.
 
Thread Starter
TS
E

eyemgh

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Posts
37
BSL Is 305 on both boots. My massive calves are 11 3/8" at the top of the cuff.
 

rcc55125

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Apr 28, 2017
Posts
106
Location
Wasatch Back
I've been working on stance all season. Keeping my hips consistently forward has been a battle.

David MacPhail at The Skiers Manifesto (https://skimoves.me/54-2/) has been addressing this topic for a while now. His position is quite interesting and in many ways runs counter to traditional thinking. However, he backs everything up with experiments and data so it's worth looking into.

In a recent post he notes, "total ramp angle between the sole of the foot and the base of a ski of more than 3 degrees could have significant adverse effects on skier stability, balance and the ability to control the direction and especially the edge angle".
I measured my Head 120RS boots at about 3 degrees and my Head Raw Instincts at about 1.6 degrees giving me well over 4 degrees on total ramp angle. I played around with shims to get the total ramp to about 3 degrees and it seemed to help. At least it seemed to make it easier to keep CoM over BoS more consistently. I plan on reading more from Mr. MacPhail and continuing the experiments.
He notes that "majority of skiers tested so far were most stable at ramp angles between 2.0 and 2.5 degrees". So, I've got to find a way to reduce things another degree, it should be fun.

@eyemgh, read what MacPhail has to say and take some measurements and see where you are now. He shows how to build a test rig to check your stability, it might be worth looking into.
 

Fuller

Semi Local
Skier
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Posts
1,522
Location
Whitefish or Florida
I've been watching this ramp angle discussion for a while and I'd like to thank Pugski for giving me something new to obsess over!

I took the boot board out of my new Tecnica Mach1 boots and looked at it; I didn't measure it but it's a whole lot fatter at the heel. My new (to me) Head iTitans have the PRX bindings with a considerable delta. I'll bet I'm pushing 3-5 degrees on that setup so I'll have to devise a direct measuring procedure with the boot in the binding. I notice the difference when I'm on those skis but I can't say it has negatively affected me. But still...
 

ted

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Posts
595
I've been watching this ramp angle discussion for a while and I'd like to thank Pugski for giving me something new to obsess over!

I took the boot board out of my new Tecnica Mach1 boots and looked at it; I didn't measure it but it's a whole lot fatter at the heel. My new (to me) Head iTitans have the PRX bindings with a considerable delta. I'll bet I'm pushing 3-5 degrees on that setup so I'll have to devise a direct measuring procedure with the boot in the binding. I notice the difference when I'm on those skis but I can't say it has negatively affected me. But still...

Here you go-
https://skimoves.me
 

Sponsor

Top