Need Industry Insider Help or First Hand Experience Insight!

[jeff foreman]

Which traditional alpine boot (98mm) lasted or equivalent lasted touring boot is known to have the smallest tightest ankle/heel hold in the industry? I am in the Hawx Utra 130 and right foot packed out already in ankle pocket. Thanks in advance.

 

[onenerdykid]

Going narrower from an Ultra will usually put you into commercial or real deal race boots. You could always consider a foam injection liner if the last is the right shape for your foot/ankle.

 

[jeff foreman]

Going narrower from an Ultra will usually put you into commercial or real deal race boots. You could always consider a foam injection liner if the last is the right shape for your foot/ankle.

Thanks and true that. Problem is I love the Ultra performance and I bought this boot because it was a full pound lighter than my former Rossignol Allspeed Elite 130's. For years I skied in boots that weighed 5.5 to 6.0 Ilb's each! I am mondo 30.5 US13 street shoe. An absolute curse compared to the benefits other skiers enjoy with smaller feet. The injected liner Surefoot,Sidas, or Boot Doc or Zipfit are all heavy compared to the excellent Atomic Liner. I am disappointed the Mimic liner is going to weigh the same or more than the current liner and has only one regular sizing-no low volume foot option.

 

[otto]

Too key points
1. Weight is weight. If you believe that it makes a difference for you, "well it's like your opinion man" The benefit of mass in your ski boots can be reduction of vibration and transmission of power to the ski. The negative to mass in your ski boots is how much they weigh. For example mass to a skier that skis at high speeds on hard snow, mass is a godsend. In the inverse lighter weight boots are beneficial when walking, hiking or carrying your boot bag on your shoulder. I am struggling to find kind words to describe how lighter weight boots improve your speed, power, and precision and overall experience when resisting gravity to move down the mountain with style and expertise.

2. If you are going to ski in a boot that starts at the "pro" last or larger, meaning a 27.5 shell that will have a forefoot width of 98mm or greater, you get the overall dimensions that come with that forefoot last. What is the important takeaway from these "pro" last boots is that there is relativity to the forefoot width and the width and shaping of the heel/ankle dimensions. That means for some skiers to achieve the heel/ankle dimensions that will really grip the back half of your foot, you would probably need to drop down dimensionally to a narrower "race" last model 95mm to 92mm at the forefoot of a 27.5. Once again there is relativity in "race" boots between the forefoot width and the amount of room in the back half of the shell. Jeff Foreman, in your case you are out of Unicorns because there is not a "race" boot last available in sizes greater than a 29.5 mondopoint, and in some cases they only go as large as the 28 shell. The universal myth of shell shape matching is that it is the dimensions of the heel/ankle that gives the hold down in the heel. This is a partial universal truth, if such a thing exists. What is an undeniable universal truth is that absolute heel hold down comes from the dimensions over the instep/ankle area and the boots shell and buckles ability to drive/hold the heel down and back in the boot. In addition to that critical dimension, the way that your ankle joint flexes or more accurately how it doesn't flex can make it possible for the tightest fitting narrowest heel dimension boot, effortless to lever the heel off the ground because of the mechanical advantage that a low/no flex ankle has over the boot. So you can foam, pad, tape, omfit the heck out of the heel/achilles/ankle pocket and you will still feel like the ankle is too loose. Two key solutions: 1. Make sure you have chosen a boot shell shape and size that allows for maximum heel retention through the instep ankle dimensions, and 2. Make sure that you identify the ankle range of motion and make the necessary adjustments to ramp angle and forward lean to give you the set-up that reduces and or eliminates the "pull" on your foot that levers it off the deck. One other trick in the bag is to reduce the space over your instep/ankle area by adding an eliminator tongue shim or a neoprene tongue shim to drive the foot down and back in the boot.

So for the OP, choosing weight over instep fit and heel hold down are opposing concepts. Pick light weight if you do not want to resolve your heel hold down issues, or pick the best possible shell shape dimensions over the top of the instep/ankle area and disregard the weight of the shell or liner that gets you there. It would be helpful to find a fitter that gets these concepts and stocks the boot models/brands that would work for you.

 

[ted]

Otto as usual, has a lot of good thoughts. Definitely address your ankle dorsiflexion.

If you are committed to the light weight concept, an intuition Pro Wrap (If you need the dorsal room, or a Power Wrap if you don't nee the Dorsal room) will fill-in a lot of volume for little or negative weight gain.

 

[jeff foreman]

Too key points
1. Weight is weight. If you believe that it makes a difference for you, "well it's like your opinion man" The benefit of mass in your ski boots can be reduction of vibration and transmission of power to the ski. The negative to mass in your ski boots is how much they weigh. For example mass to a skier that skis at high speeds on hard snow, mass is a godsend. In the inverse lighter weight boots are beneficial when walking, hiking or carrying your boot bag on your shoulder. I am struggling to find kind words to describe how lighter weight boots improve your speed, power, and precision and overall experience when resisting gravity to move down the mountain with style and expertise.

2. If you are going to ski in a boot that starts at the "pro" last or larger, meaning a 27.5 shell that will have a forefoot width of 98mm or greater, you get the overall dimensions that come with that forefoot last. What is the important takeaway from these "pro" last boots is that there is relativity to the forefoot width and the width and shaping of the heel/ankle dimensions. That means for some skiers to achieve the heel/ankle dimensions that will really grip the back half of your foot, you would probably need to drop down dimensionally to a narrower "race" last model 95mm to 92mm at the forefoot of a 27.5. Once again there is relativity in "race" boots between the forefoot width and the amount of room in the back half of the shell. Jeff Foreman, in your case you are out of Unicorns because there is not a "race" boot last available in sizes greater than a 29.5 mondopoint, and in some cases they only go as large as the 28 shell. The universal myth of shell shape matching is that it is the dimensions of the heel/ankle that gives the hold down in the heel. This is a partial universal truth, if such a thing exists. What is an undeniable universal truth is that absolute heel hold down comes from the dimensions over the instep/ankle area and the boots shell and buckles ability to drive/hold the heel down and back in the boot. In addition to that critical dimension, the way that your ankle joint flexes or more accurately how it doesn't flex can make it possible for the tightest fitting narrowest heel dimension boot, effortless to lever the heel off the ground because of the mechanical advantage that a low/no flex ankle has over the boot. So you can foam, pad, tape, omfit the heck out of the heel/achilles/ankle pocket and you will still feel like the ankle is too loose. Two key solutions: 1. Make sure you have chosen a boot shell shape and size that allows for maximum heel retention through the instep ankle dimensions, and 2. Make sure that you identify the ankle range of motion and make the necessary adjustments to ramp angle and forward lean to give you the set-up that reduces and or eliminates the "pull" on your foot that levers it off the deck. One other trick in the bag is to reduce the space over your instep/ankle area by adding an eliminator tongue shim or a neoprene tongue shim to drive the foot down and back in the boot.

So for the OP, choosing weight over instep fit and heel hold down are opposing concepts. Pick light weight if you do not want to resolve your heel hold down issues, or pick the best possible shell shape dimensions over the top of the instep/ankle area and disregard the weight of the shell or liner that gets you there. It would be helpful to find a fitter that gets these concepts and stocks the boot models/brands that would work for you.

Thanks for tongue talk and mass reference. It's more about sweet spot for me than obsessive weight reduction. Lebowski reference appreciated. We will abide.