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Philpug

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Thanks, and yeah I got mixed up on the xmax. Mine are 98 and it's the race I was looking at that is 96. I thought about it after our conversation and I do think it is a good warning to not necessarily look for a plug straight away. Maybe later on if this is something I'm going to stick with but I don't think I have the time for that kind of fitting work now.

I do have a lower instep, and my problem with most boots tend to be feeling loose on the top of the foot, heel, and shin area.

As for the price of boots themselves- If I sourced them I can find some good plug boots from the last few seasons for cheaper than a lot of off the shelf boots ($300-$400 for x-lab or head b3, and can get current fischers with 40% discount). I don't know how much money I would have to spend to get them properly fit though.
As many have eluded to in this thread, boots are not where you shortcut, you will be going 80 MPH. I am sure that your insurance deductable is much more than what you think you will be saving. Speed is expensive, how fast do you want to go? There is a plethora of knowledge in this thread, these racers (and ex racers) have abolutely no agenda or dog in the fight, they will not be your competitors but are trying to help you avoid bad decisions. I would strongly suggest listening to their suggestions. SG/DH is a do or do not endeavor, it is not a try discipline.
 
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Jason Kurth

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Yeah I'm just trying to figure what is the best option. I've called a few shops that recommended fitting me in a non-plug consumer race boot. I've also talked to people who race masters speed events urging me to get fitted for a full on custom plug boot.

I have to wonder though- if the boot fits me properly and is appropriately stiff for racing, would any really be unsafe?

I'm not really concerned about being super competitive at this point. I just like skiing very fast and would rather have a safer place to do it.
 
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BGreen

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A soft plug (Lange ZA, Head B3, Dalbello SS, new) makes a good speed boot. The advantage of a plug boot is they are designed to be modified/customized. The advantage of a non-plug boot (Lange RS, Head RS) is they are already made bigger in the areas typically ground or punched. If you know you like Salomon boots, you might see if you can find an older X-Lab, or look at the new Atomics.
 

ScotsSkier

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Buying online and taking to a bootfitter and paying to have them fit is also an option, the problem is getting to a shop that also has any of these in stock in my size.

This is also why I'm wondering if it's possible to try to change the forward lean on the salomon x max 130 to be more aggressive with some sort of rear insert, or if they could be heat molded for more forward lead. I know they will otherwise fit me perfectly out of the box.

I've thought about giving the raptor rs another shot in the right size, but even going two sizes down the the right size I think they might be a bit too loose for me. I know it's hard to judge how a boot fits in the wrong size, but it did feel like there was a lot of space above the front of the foot and a bit on the sides. The 28.5s are 98mm last where 26.5 would be 96mm which would help, I'm just not sure how much tighter in the calf going down two sizes would be and if it would be enough.

Seems like in the right size it would fit like a lange. I went to a local shop yesterday and they didn't have any race boots but the guy let me try on a customer's lange rs 130s he had there in 26.5 and they were nice but didn't fit as snug as the salomons.

Since I have a smaller foot it also has me thinking that maybe I wouldn't need much work to fit in a plug boot like the b3.

Just so much wrong here - apart from all the things that have already been alluded to!

Just a couple of things that have not been mentioned yet

1 increasing the forward lean on the boot is NOT guaranteed to get you forward. In fact in many cases it will do the exact opposite. To get you forward you need to be driving into the cuff and bringing your hips forward. Increasing the forward lean is more likely to get your hips in the back seats. I have been racing in plug boots for 10 years plus and the first thing I do is toss the spoiler

2 just because you have a smaller foot does NOT mean that you will need less work to get into a plug. Not sure where that notion comes from!!!! A plug boot is molded thicker to allow it to be ground to the shape of your foot. You do also realize that most real plug boots are 92/93 mm width (@26 IIRC). The wider versions are normally 95. And as they boot gets smaller that width reduces. I am in a 24/92mm plug and, even with a much smaller foot than you, it still takes a decent amount of grinding. If I was racing WC I would be in a 23 plug with a lot more grinding! And by buying the boots that I know are closer to the right shape for my foot, I can reduce the work required. For example with a high instep the B3 would need a lot of work for me.

And for clarity, I am not a bootfitter and haven't stayed at a holiday inn for a while And yes, I will buy boots at a discount but have access to most of the gear necessary for fitting and enough experience now to know what needs to be done for my foot. And yes, I have a lot of previous purchases sitting in the closet because I couldn't make them work for me....
 

Don'tfit

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A twenty nine year old DownHiller that doesn't know what gear to use? And they'll let you out on the course? Atomic Redster 170, Nordica Dobermann 150, Technica 9.2.
Those should drive your Soul7's.
 
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Jason Kurth

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How would I learn if I don't ask or start sometime? I've raced sl/gs in hs and college but it was never that serious and I never had an opportunity to try or know anyone who raced speed events in the northeast. I only had heard of people doing super g who were in ski academies, and downhill was unheard of.

This course isn't birds of prey or anything and I have been told it is relatively friendly to beginner downhillers. I'm not expecting to win and I'm not expecting to embarrass myself either. I already have appropriate dh and sg skis figured out.
 

François Pugh

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As a counter point to the folks giving you a hard time, please let me congratulate you on deciding to ski fast on SG and DH courses when they have a course prepared for you and A and B netting in place.

As to boots, when I decided to get boots for skiing fast I spared no expense, and got custom foam, custom foot bed and full alignment set up by the same guy who made and set up Steve Podborski's winning DH boots.

Don't skimp on boots. It's worth it.
 

ScotsSkier

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How would I learn if I don't ask or start sometime? I've raced sl/gs in hs and college but it was never that serious and I never had an opportunity to try or know anyone who raced speed events in the northeast. I only had heard of people doing super g who were in ski academies, and downhill was unheard of.

This course isn't birds of prey or anything and I have been told it is relatively friendly to beginner downhillers. I'm not expecting to win and I'm not expecting to embarrass myself either. I already have appropriate dh and sg skis figured out.

Jason, fair points. I don't think most of us were giving you a hard time for wanting to try speed events, we were commenting on your approach to buying boots. As a Masters coach, I always want to encourage more people into the sport. Although I normally suggest people start with GS to get some experience under their belt, I am reluctant to let a newbie racer go straight into speed events from a safety perspective (I have hit the B netting at 60mph + and I can assure you it is not a fun experience!!!)

However, from a setting personal expectations POV, there is a bit more to running DH or SG than just pointing them downhill and going fast.......ogsmile ....these gate things come at you surprisingly quickly and you actually have to turn....and you might be surprised at the overall quality and experience of the field..... for reference, i started racing masters at 50 and turned up to my first race thinking something similar....wow! did I get my eyes opened!!!.. so don't be too surprised to find yourself finishing lower down than you might expect..... but it is most certainly a great experience to run speed races....and yes we all need to start somewhere so kudos to you for going for it....

you say you have appropriate skis figured out?? hopefully they are sufficient radius/flex to do the job..
 
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Jason Kurth

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Yeah by not embarrass myself I only mean I know that I am fully capable of getting down the course in once piece at reasonable speed, whether that puts me near the middle or the bottom of the competition who knows but I don't think I will stand out as not belonging there or being able to handle it.

For skis I found some older head >33m sg skis (210cm) and >45m dh skis (211cm and 216cm). I'll try both.
 

Muleski

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I was under the impression that Jason was headed to New England, specially to Vermont, soon. Was going to investigate boots and boot fitters there. So, I responded with the names of five people who I know have a great deal of experience in the race boot niche. Perhaps he could clarify "where", before as a community we throw out the names of every top "race boot' fitter and shop in the country. I presume he's mot going to have the US Race directors on this and fitting his boots.

@Jason Kurth, lots of very good, and very polite, comments and ideas. You're going to get dozens of names of fitters.......everywhere. so maybe clarifying where you would plan to get the boots sorted would help, I think.

I'm also wondering where you plan to race, and in what format? USSA Masters? Pay attention to SS's posts ^^^^^. Good stuff.

You may have picked up that real speed skiers ski in softer boots, than they would ski SL and GS in. Has always been the case. One of the big pluses of plug boots is that they come in a range of stiffness, and they can be modified, "cut" and dialed in quite easily by somebody who knows their stuff.

Just throwing it our there. Have fun, and be safe. And realize that both of those are hard to do on the cheap. You may be able to get there pairs of good used speed skis for the cost of getting the boots right. If they are not right, you're going to put yourself at risk.......
Having the wrong alignment, not judging your speed as you need to nail a turn, over reacting and hooking up at 60 mph plus can be ugly.

But....this could be a lot of fun, done wisely.
 
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Jason Kurth

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Yes I am going to Vermont in a few weeks, not to race but I know there are good bootfitters there and most of my gear is already there. For racing it will be USSA masters events, this season just Ski Cooper DH/SG in march and I'll hopefully head to more next season.
 

Doug Briggs

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Hi @Jason Kurth ,

I am late to this thread. You have received a lot of good advice. Boots are the most important thing to get dialed in and softer for speed is typical, but not necessary. You mention forward lean a lot and I wonder why? Canting, cuff alignment and footbeds are all key to getting a boot to perform at its best.

I work at a shop in Breckenridge that specializes in boot sales and boot fitting. We have lots of 2017 stock in a variety of boots and still have lots of 2018 inventory. Our bootfitters can help you find the best fit for your foot and for the racing you plan on.

I'm not a bootfitter but rather a shop tech, tuning and mounting skis. I am also a coach for the DH Camp, training runs and races. I provide group inspections and can help you with some tips as a noob. We'll probably have video with coaching available as well. Be sure to introduce yourself.

The Ski Cooper course, while without obvious objective hazards such as jumps, blind turns and excessive steepness is a serious course. Your selection of speed skis is quite appropriate although at places other than Cooper you'll find SGs that require perhaps a smaller ski. FWIW, I used a 33m 209cm 2002 Fischer SG to win last week. Some gates in the flats demanded the smaller turning radius.

Training 6 years ago. As you can see it is pretty straightforward. On a good day, when the course is smooth, you can hold a tuck for the whole course. Practice starts and skating; the first 15 seconds of the course is pretty flat so you want to get all the speed you can from the start.

Some training runs from 8 years ago. A different perspective. The wind can blow at Cooper. We also have the best start house anywhere.
 
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Jason Kurth

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Ok thank you doug. I’ll be at the training camp beforehand and appreciate any help/advice.

How much softer do people generally run speeds boots compared to tech?
 

Doug Briggs

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Ok thank you doug. I’ll be at the training camp beforehand and appreciate any help/advice.

How much softer do people generally run speeds boots compared to tech?

Not a lot and not everyone is using different boots.

I meant to add I'm in a Fischer RC4 Pro 130 Vacuum boot. Love it. I can manage the stiffness of the boot with the second buckle from the top. I don't find I need to adjust for racing vs. free skiing. The key with Cooper is subtle snow contact; avoiding high pressure as much as possible and using just enough edge to make the turns work. The snow is 100% natural and therefore not as dense as man-made snow.
 

Doug Briggs

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Here are a couple videos from Friday training last week.

Frank podiumed in the first and was fourth in the second race.

Jeanette is a former Canadian ski team DHer. She DQed the first race and was first in the second.
 

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