Moving the mount point back and forth.

Discussion in 'Tuning Techniques and Tool Information' started by Mendieta, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Mendieta

    Mendieta Master of Snowplow Moderator

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    Hi all

    My Rallies are getting a base grind for the season. And a 3 degree side bevel. Yay.

    Now. I have the system bindings centered. And I know I can always experiment. But, theoretically. What do you expect, normally, when moving the bindings back? (Or forth). I know many of you have the rallies a notch or two forward. Why is that? Many thanks in advance!
     
  2. Jacques

    Jacques Workin' It on Skis Best I Can Skier

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    In general moving back brings a bit better glide and speed. Also works much better in powder when you want the weight back a bit more.
    Moving forward makes for a bit more demanding ski on groomers. Will get more weight on the tips so you engage the edge up front.

    With a system binding you can play around with it. As long as your FORWARD PRESSURE is correct you can place them wherever you want to. You need to ignore the size numbers when you do that.
     
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  3. razie

    razie Sir Shiftsalot Skier

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    It totally depends on your body build and the ski itself (where the original mount point was) and I guess the way you ski...

    You should certainly experiment if you can! The first thing would be to find the sweet spot for you and that may not be where the builder said "neutral" would be, as not all bodies are the exact average the builder calculated the mount point for! Moving forward from the sweet spot should generally make it easier to engage the tips on eastern snow and also to slide the tails around, but also easier to dig in on powder... but it robs you of power and the ski feel. Moving them back can teach you to get more forward (I have a set of Heads mounted for this purpose) - you definitely feel more power coming out of turns, but it's more wishy-washy going in, as the tips don't engage as precisely if you can't reposition the skis quickly and strongly.

    A decent starting point is where the builder said neutral is. A better starting point is BoF over CRS - google that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  4. Thread Starter
    TS
    Mendieta

    Mendieta Master of Snowplow Moderator

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    Thank you tons, @Jacques and @razie , that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for!
     
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  5. tachedub

    tachedub Booting up Skier

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    I have found that moving the binding forward has helped my wife and myself since we are both advanced skiers on stiffer higher performance skis but are not big people. 5'5' and she weighs about 115 ad me 145. The forward point allows us to bend the skis easier.
     
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  6. Ron

    Ron Making fresh tracks Pugski Ski Tester

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    just keep in mind that with rockered ski's the CRS is not as exact as the true running surface is greatly effected by snow conditions and some ski's are designed to make extended contact from flat vs tipped on edge.
     
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  7. Wolfski

    Wolfski Getting on the lift Skier

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    Moving the foot forward eases turn initiation while giving up some holding power, i.e. you'll feel like you're on a shorter ski
    Just the opposite happens when moving your mount point back, the ski feels longer, you'll have to work more to initiate the turn and the feeling that the edge can hold on anything.
    Most skiers will notice the difference with as little as a centimeter of movement.
     
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  8. Ron

    Ron Making fresh tracks Pugski Ski Tester

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    5mm, which is about 2 'clicks" forward/backward on most demo bindings (~3 per click) is perceptible,
     
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  9. Philpug

    Philpug Enjoying being back on two skis. Admin Pugski Ski Tester

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    IF you are going to do this, you need to do it in a controlled environment. First of all, you say you are going to a 3* side bevel, you need to get used to that first. Second, once you do that, you need to do this experiment on the same day, the same run in the same conditions,. This should be done on a trail that you are familiar with ideally mid week when you are not distracted by traffic around you. This should also not be done too early in the season when it is just a WRoD and you still don't have your ski legs under you yet.
     
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  10. Ron

    Ron Making fresh tracks Pugski Ski Tester

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    you can also experiment with how you hold your upper body. being aware of your upper back and shoulders can have a big impact of where your COM ends up. you can play around with how far forward you hold your arms to see how this effects your COM. . Not suggesting you ski like a zombie but you will be surprised how much a very small change in where your COM ends up over the ski can make in how you engage the tips of your skis. I discovered this first hand during rehab of an injury. The PT ended up realigning my stance. According to him, a lot of people actually hold their upper torso slightly backward. this will move you aft on your ski's. (it also effects bike riding and every day issues with neck and lower back pain)
     
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  11. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Getting off the lift Skier

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    How is it possible to bend the ski easier if the binding is forward?
    You have a shorter length in front of the binding, which will make it stiffer, thus harder to bend.

    You are feeling something else
     
  12. Ron

    Ron Making fresh tracks Pugski Ski Tester

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    its easier to access the tip due to leverage. further back = less leverage.
     
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  13. ScotsSkier

    ScotsSkier USSA Coach Pugski Ski Tester Industry Insider

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    ?????? Have the laws of physics changed? :rolleyes:
     
  14. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Getting off the lift Skier

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    Exactly
     
  15. RuleMiHa

    RuleMiHa Getting off the lift Skier

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    I think this is dependent on the length of the moment arm or lever. So while a longer portion of the ski in front gives a longer surface area to act on and will bend easier, if the body of the leverer(skier) is shorter it can't proportionally apply the force in the same way (ow, ow, ow, now y'all made me make my brain hurt. Physics!) so a shorter front portion of ski will be more bendable (but not easier to bend) for a skier of a certain biomechanical type.

    Think about it like this: If you weld an 8 foot pole to the back of a ski, secure the tip and pull on the top of that pole I guarantee you can bend any ski, lots. Take that same ski, weld a 1 foot pole, secure the tip and pull, you will get a different result. But take a 1 foot portion off of the same previous ski and you should be able to bend it.

    Basically whether and how easily an individual skier can bend a ski depends on the length of both the ski and the skier. It's much more complicated because of joints etc. but still valid.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  16. tromano

    tromano Goin' the way they're pointed... Skier

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    I tend to mount far forward of recommended lines (+1 - +4 on average). For the way I ski its easier for me to be more balanced with the binding further forward than average. I like it because subtle movements have big pay off. If I mount my skis "on the line" it feels like I am often fighting to stay forward, leaning on the cuffs of my boots, etc... And that focus on being forward makes it harder to ski in balance. I think how you have your boots and bindings set up also has a huge impact on where you want the bindings to be fore vs aft.

    Another factor influencing where the mount point should be is your priority in "responsiveness" vs. "predictability". Skis mounted forward tend to be more responsive to small inputs, a subtle weight shift and now your turning. They are also responsive to subtle mistakes. Or subtle changes in snow conditions... e.g. they can feel hooky. Moving your bindings back 1.5 cm may change the feel from hooky to predictable.
     
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  17. Seldomski

    Seldomski Paralysis by analysis Skier

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    Moving the mount forward should make the ski easier to smear, steer, and pivot.

    -The rotational inertia of the ski is decreased by moving forward
    -Less strength required to pivot (torque of snow on ski is smaller since front end is shorter). Also lower inertia (see above). Basically, you can overpower what the tips and tails are doing with less torque.
    -Less weight on the tail at end of the turn, so the tails will be easier to release into a skid

    So conversely, if you want the ski to skid less, maybe moving the mount back is the answer.

    @razie summed it up nicely.
     
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  18. WheatKing

    WheatKing Ice coast carveaholic Skier

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    Just a heads up for people with system bindings.. check your boot center with the BSL markings on the system binding.. and the boot center mark on the ski. Almost guaranteed they'll be off unless your in head boots on head skis.

    I had some atomic skis that felt really weird.. tails kept hanging up, always ending up way back seat in the turns for some reason.. and had a hard time side slipping etc.. put the skis on my bench and locked in the boot and measured the boot center to the center mark on the ski.. it was -2cm. If i had atomic boots, maybe it would be right.. who knows.. ending up moving the binding up 2.5cm to get it in my personal sweet spot.. I'm in Tecnica boots.. Skis were fine after that.. totally different experience.

    So.. for some people.. moving the binding forward or back, is merely putting the boot where it should be in the first place.. Something to keep in mind..
     
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  19. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Getting off the lift Skier

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    No, it's the mass of the skier that bends the ski in a turn
     
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  20. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Getting off the lift Skier

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    You're not supposed to lean on your boots to get forward, just pull your feet back.

    And anyway it's the turn forces that bend a ski
     

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