Moving along the ski.

[jimtransition]

Winter Park Bob's drill is about keeping skis parallel ('parallel to the max') as he claims it's important for mogul skiing. And it doesn't help to have our skis pointing in different directions. Not sure the context for when/whom he'd feel the need for such a drill. Can't say the thought "going into the bumps, must drill some 360s" has ever sprung to mind.

Guess it highlights the importance of understanding the context of instruction. That can be a bit difficult in a 2 hour lesson and damn hard from a 90 second vid.

Whilst I didn't love that vid, in order to do a good 360, you have to be able to release your edges simultaneously, I teach people with sequential turn entries to do 360s all the time.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Flat 360s are a great exercise, and one of my favorites.
Getting them to work means you've got lots of things working in synch.
However, "moving along the ski," this thread's title, is not one of them.

 

[geepers]

Bob Barnes’ primary rule in the “Crudology” vimeo is to “keep them going in the direction they are pointed”.

How do you teach this? What exercises? How do you explain it?

Getting back to the OP...
Just back from a week's ski trip with 3 buddies who are low level intermediates. They all have different issues in their skiing but a common factor is use of defensive sliding for control speed. Second day we had approx 10cm of pow - not really heavy pow but enough that sliding was causing problems. Trying to link turns when the snow wouldn't let them slide much meant increasing speed, trying to force the outside ski around by leaning inside and back, with an inevitable fall.

We had a brief discussion on speed control by skidding skis sideways to the direction of travel vs shaping a turn across (or even up) the hill. And a simple "follow my tracks" drill, initially one, rounded, medium radius turn at a time, coming to a complete stop on each turn before turning the other direction. This gave them the confidence to wait patiently for the outside ski to do its job and to control their speed through the turn shape. They got it quickly enough (within 1/2 dozen turns each way) so I gradually eliminated the stop and skied rounded, linked turns with plenty of time spent out of the fall line.

This was done on a solid blue run.

My take-away is that for many intermediate skiers speed control is primarily achieved by skidding and when this is not available in crud conditions, they need another option.

Last day of the trip we had wet, heavy pow to deal with which made skidding even more difficult and I was pleased to see that the 3 of them continued with that style of speed control.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Reading through the thread your question has been answeeed several times over including by the OP himself near the beginning.

I love Bob Barnes and his explainations as they deal in the issues in a general way that applies to all. This great because it allows for variances in the application.

Here is my humble take of B.B. intended to come across in a more long winded answer.

Think of it this way, ski is not static, it is dynamic. How many skiers from beginner all the way up to a few budding advanced skiers become static when in difficulty and thereby have a hard time skiing a particular run. As they get in trouble they freeze (balancing has stopped) in a position instead of flexing (dynamic balance) to keep the skis on track on the path that they want.

As each skier has different fears (primary cause) be it one or many, it simply becomes looking at the individual and setting up a drill that gets them into a controlled condition in which they stiffen up (static). Now you can get them to remain dynamic through that action (you insert whatever you need to do here), fear gone that one problem solved, find the next one, repeat.

Remember take pose and hold it doesn’t work in skiing unless you are standing still (and even then), remain in dynamic (motion, move with....etc) it’s how you remain in balance and control no matter the conditions.

 

[JESinstr]

Reading through the thread your question has been answeeed several times over including by the OP himself near the beginning.

I love Bob Barnes and his explainations as they deal in the issues in a general way that applies to all. This great because it allows for variances in the application.

Here is my humble take of B.B. intended to come across in a more long winded answer.

Think of it this way, ski is not static, it is dynamic. How many skiers from beginner all the way up to a few budding advanced skiers become static when in difficulty and thereby have a hard time skiing a particular run. As they get in trouble they freeze (balancing has stopped) in a position instead of flexing (dynamic balance) to keep the skis on track on the path that they want.

As each skier has different fears (primary cause) be it one or many, it simply becomes looking at the individual and setting up a drill that gets them into a controlled condition in which they stiffen up (static). Now you can get them to remain dynamic through that action (you insert whatever you need to do here), fear gone that one problem solved, find the next one, repeat.

Remember take pose and hold it doesn’t work in skiing unless you are standing still (and even then), remain in dynamic (motion, move with....etc) it’s how you remain in balance and control no matter the conditions.

I too admire the writings and videos of Bob Barnes. And like you stated, he has knack for telling his story in a general and inclusive way. That being said, I often ask myself, if I didn't have the skill and knowledge base that I have, would I get as much out of his deliverables as I do?

To your points on dynamics/static. IMO there is nothing static about the sport of skiing. I think you are confusing the movement patterns associated with straight line travel and the movement patterns needed to create circular travel. To put it another way, the vision of someone bracing (static) against a force that is constantly pulling them vs someone managing (flowing) a created force that is pushing them

IMO if the skier doesn't have the knowledge and skill base to create and build the inward circular push of centripetal force then, as velocity or lack of space creates fear/apprehension, they will react to what they are feeling and that is either the pull of their mass down the hill or the centrifugal pull trying to destroy what centripetal force has been created. Either way, it's back to straight line travel.

And to the title of this thread, it is the bending/edging of the ski that creates the centripetal turning force and having the ability to direct pressure along the length of the ski in order to create/manage the life of the turn is critical.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I too admire the writings and videos of Bob Barnes. And like you stated, he has knack for telling his story in a general and inclusive way. That being said, I often ask myself, if I didn't have the skill and knowledge base that I have, would I get as much out of his deliverables as I do?

To your points on dynamics/static. IMO there is nothing static about the sport of skiing. I think you are confusing the movement patterns associated with straight line travel and the movement patterns needed to create circular travel. To put it another way, the vision of someone bracing (static) against a force that is constantly pulling them vs someone managing (flowing) a created force that is pushing them

IMO if the skier doesn't have the knowledge and skill base to create and build the inward circular push of centripetal force then, as velocity or lack of space creates fear/apprehension, they will react to what they are feeling and that is either the pull of their mass down the hill or the centrifugal pull trying to destroy what centripetal force has been created. Either way, it's back to straight line travel.

And to the title of this thread, it is the bending/edging of the ski that creates the centripetal turning force and having the ability to direct pressure along the length of the ski in order to create/manage the life of the turn is critical.

Sorry to miss lead I used the term losely.

The point was that some (lots) hold a pose to to copy a motion (a lot of instructors do this to get a point across, sometimes to well). The second is that they don’t know what feels right or relax enough and stiffen up in fear (lack of a better general term) and again hold the position without adjusting for terrain conditions or for that matter imbalances to fine tune an action in perfect conditions. This static.

Those that look smooth, fast and total in control, look static (they are not bounced around) but in slow motion are constantly adjusting and tweaking very actively. Dynamic.

So I agree skiing in general is dynamic, but for purposes of the answer there is static as well.

Cheers,

 

[geepers]

Reading through the thread your question has been answeeed several times over including by the OP himself near the beginning.

I love Bob Barnes and his explainations as they deal in the issues in a general way that applies to all. This great because it allows for variances in the application.

Here is my humble take of B.B. intended to come across in a more long winded answer.

Think of it this way, ski is not static, it is dynamic. How many skiers from beginner all the way up to a few budding advanced skiers become static when in difficulty and thereby have a hard time skiing a particular run. As they get in trouble they freeze (balancing has stopped) in a position instead of flexing (dynamic balance) to keep the skis on track on the path that they want.

As each skier has different fears (primary cause) be it one or many, it simply becomes looking at the individual and setting up a drill that gets them into a controlled condition in which they stiffen up (static). Now you can get them to remain dynamic through that action (you insert whatever you need to do here), fear gone that one problem solved, find the next one, repeat.

Remember take pose and hold it doesn’t work in skiing unless you are standing still (and even then), remain in dynamic (motion, move with....etc) it’s how you remain in balance and control no matter the conditions.

Wasn't really asking a question - just relating a simple method that worked with those particular 3 skiers. Yes, other posters had described it (e.g. James "Teach speed control through line, not braking")

Something I recall from a CSIA course convener: let students try to achieve the objective before offering too much information - they may do it well enough without much instruction. In this case a discussion about dynamic balance, centripetal force, bending skis, etc, was more than they needed to grasp BB's two principles and nike it.

 

[razie]

WOW - that's what having to actually do real work once in a decade does to people: I missed a bunch of good threads here.

After re-watching the video, my takeaway is that you don't want to manhandle the ski in soft snow and you don't want to turn too much either (there is some embedded speed control in going sideways and a risk added to every change). Also, a personal observation, especially in glades: you want to plan your turns ahead of time, as little or as much as possible.

Back to manhandling the ski - this will be hard and unnatural to those focused on rotary and pivoting (without the 3rd level training required to understand deeply that rotary is not what a layman may interpret that to mean, i.e. heel pushing).

The drill some are picking on, getting over the outside ski, is a great drill and one I'm not doing enough of! It's truly just about a clean edge change over a balanced position, which you can only get when you can move along the ski! And most of those who are able to do that, which itself is a minority, would do that just like in the video, whether they're willing to admit it or not. The even smaller minority of those whose hips are lower in transition than otherwise, might devise different ways to... move forward! And until one's a member of that tiny set (in mathematical terms)/, I don't see any good reason to pooh-pooh anything about it.

cheers