Moving along the ski.

[LiquidFeet]

....
Not done like that. I showed that exact video to Bob a few years ago. His comment, "She [Mikaela] doesn't ski like that."
The movement along the ski in that video - in direction of the ski tips, is ridiculous.

I'm so glad you said that. I've always thought that was a very contrived drill.

....
Good to know you have worked with Rick Schnellmann. Don't know him personally but have always respected his drill mastery building block approach to dev. Smart stuff. Everybody seems to think that some magic some guru mentor says to them is going to make a lasting difference. Yet, the only time I really notice someone who moves ahead in coordination development quickly, it is always from pounding in the drills.

I agree about Rick's drills. He "parameterizes" everything. Meaning, he prescribes nothing, but offers drills that allow the skier to experience the extent a movement can be stretched in different directions. Then the skier is free to use what works.

 

[geepers]

Not done like that. I showed that exact video to Bob a few years ago. His comment, "She [Mikaela] doesn't ski like that."
The movement along the ski in that video - in direction of the ski tips, is ridiculous.

My understanding (and I could easily be completely wrong) is that the purpose of this drill is to get the feel for engagement of the new outside ski before edging and moving inside. Having a tendency to move inside too early myself drills like this (COM moving in the direction of the ski) have helped considerably working between early edge grip and moving inside too soon.

Afterwards "lose the drill and keep the skill". Which I'm pretty sure is the reason we don't see Shiffrin ski like that. And why we don't see BB 360 everywhere .



Is everyone here from Winter Park?

 

[cantunamunch]

Good to know you have worked with Rick Schnellmann. Don't know him personally but have always respected his drill mastery building block approach to dev. Smart stuff. Everybody seems to think that some magic some guru mentor says to them is going to make a lasting difference. Yet, the only time I really notice someone who moves ahead in coordination development quickly, it is always from pounding in the drills.

The nice thing about Rick's work is that he has a structured progression, whether for new learning or review.

 

[James]

My understanding (and I could easily be completely wrong) is that the purpose of this drill is to get the feel for engagement of the new outside ski before edging and moving inside. Having a tendency to move inside too early myself drills like this (COM moving in the direction of the ski) have helped considerably working between early edge grip and moving inside too soon.

Afterwards "lose the drill and keep the skill". Which I'm pretty sure is the reason we don't see Shiffrin ski like that. And why we don't see BB 360 everywhere .



Is everyone here from Winter Park?

That's not the Bob Barnes we're talking about, nor the one who's a member here and was on epic for 17 years.

As to the drill, Whatever. The last time we had this discussion I posted an analysis by Dyksterhouse, Mikaela's coach on how her hips were too high at transition compared to Fenningers. (This was several years ago)
That would be the effect of doing that drill that way.
I'm not claiming MS ever did that drill that way. No idea. She just narrates a Burke vid. But to me, it's moronic to do it that way as shown in the vid. There's other ways to do it.

 

[JESinstr]

My understanding (and I could easily be completely wrong) is that the purpose of this drill is to get the feel for engagement of the new outside ski before edging and moving inside. Having a tendency to move inside too early myself drills like this (COM moving in the direction of the ski) have helped considerably working between early edge grip and moving inside too soon.

Afterwards "lose the drill and keep the skill". Which I'm pretty sure is the reason we don't see Shiffrin ski like that. And why we don't see BB 360 everywhere .



Is everyone here from Winter Park?

No, you are not wrong.

Skiers will never appreciate the total carving potential/capability of their skis until they are (as you said) able to:
1. Engage the little toe edge of soon-to-be new outside ski
2. Move to assume a hingeable (flexion), balanced dynamic stance on the new ski and
3. Role to the new edge.
Easy as 1,2,3

And you are right. it is not a technique, it is a drill. And it has nothing to do with moving along the ski but everything to do about establishing an early, proper relationship between your mass (hinge alignment) and your outside ski.

 

[geepers]

That's not the Bob Barnes we're talking about, nor the one who's a member here and was on epic for 17 years.

My bad. Who'd a thought that in the paltry few million skiers in Nth Amex there'd be two bob Barnes! Shudda searched vimeo instead of youtube.

Having now been intro-ed to the right BB and watched the 16 minutes of Crudology ski porn... I'm not sure what the hell is meant by cardinal rules 2 & 3...Taken to their logical conclusion it would seem to indicate a straight line to the scene of the accident. Where no doubt rules 1, 4, 5 and 6 would apply.

Crudology lumps so many different snow conditions into crud so any one adaption may not cover it. But dobyman seems closest IMHO...

Technically, “moving along the ski” and “moving along with the ski” are two different things (that can happen together). Moving “along” the ski means that the fore/aft position of the CoM is running its pressure along the ski from tip to the tail through each turn and boosts effective carving and penetration. However, moving along “with” the ski means that the CoM is being carried with the same speed and direction of the BoS (skis). This is arc to arc skiing that does not attempt “edge rotation” that is not feasible in crud where the resulting viscosity would be too much of a bear to handle requiring laborious up-unweighting to facilitate. As a result, interestingly enough, the clean and quiet edge locked carving that we use for racing and technical freeskiing is the technique on firm terrain that is also best for turning in crud. Something to keep in mind as well is that because we do not have the power of edge rotation for changing direction in crud, we must maximize all the travel within the turn to be tipping and bending the ski which means that the transition or, the “edge change” depicted below, is very short and quick, otherwise, too much speed will be picked up and that of which cannot be diminished with, again, rotary based skidding.

BTW I should add a thanks for the vector to BB's vimeo. Excellent stuff.

As to the drill, Whatever. The last time we had this discussion I posted an analysis by Dyksterhouse, Mikaela's coach on how her hips were too high at transition compared to Fenningers. (This was several years ago)
That would be the effect of doing that drill that way.
I'm not claiming MS ever did that drill that way. No idea. She just narrates a Burke vid. But to me, it's moronic to do it that way as shown in the vid. There's other ways to do it.

Calling it 'moronic' is not an especially useful word. Why is it moronic? (I would agree it would be moronic to try that drill on the steeps in crudology - unless practicing rules 1, 4 and 6. )

The purpose of a drill is often to isolate a single useful movement or sensation to help the student establish cause and effect. Any drill may have unintended effects that may or may not need to be guarded against. (Although not sure why a member of general public trying to improve BAS engagement needs to get too worried about Mikaela's hips.

In any event if you have a better tool be happy to learn about it.

 

[geepers]

I'm not sure what the hell is meant by cardinal rules 2 & 3...

Now understand what BB means in #2 and 3. See 0:21.

 

[Mike King]

My understanding (and I could easily be completely wrong) is that the purpose of this drill is to get the feel for engagement of the new outside ski before edging and moving inside. Having a tendency to move inside too early myself drills like this (COM moving in the direction of the ski) have helped considerably working between early edge grip and moving inside too soon.

Afterwards "lose the drill and keep the skill". Which I'm pretty sure is the reason we don't see Shiffrin ski like that. And why we don't see BB 360 everywhere .



Is everyone here from Winter Park?

There are two Bob Barnes in PSIA Rocky Mountain, and both are long-time examiners in the division. There's Winter Park Bob Barnes, who is the head of the ski school there. And there is "our" Bob Barnes, who currently is an instructor and trainer at Aspen Highlands, and previously was at Copper, Keystone, Copper, and Breckenridge.

Mike

 

[dj61]

My understanding (and I could easily be completely wrong) is that the purpose of this drill is to get the feel for engagement of the new outside ski before edging and moving inside. Having a tendency to move inside too early myself drills like this (COM moving in the direction of the ski) have helped considerably working between early edge grip and moving inside too soon.

Afterwards "lose the drill and keep the skill". Which I'm pretty sure is the reason we don't see Shiffrin ski like that. And why we don't see BB 360 everywhere .



Is everyone here from Winter Park?

Interesting. He tells us to "stand on two feet". And when he skies down the moguls in the final seconds, you see him lifting his inside foot. No wonder skiers get confused.

 

[Paul S.]

There are two Bob Barnes in PSIA Rocky Mountain, and both are long-time examiners in the division. There's Winter Park Bob Barnes, who is the head of the ski school there. And there is "our" Bob Barnes, who currently is an instructor and trainer at Aspen Highlands, and previously was at Copper, Keystone, Copper, and Breckenridge.

Mike

 

[Paul S.]

FWIW. I skied with the Winter Park BB for five days at Snowbird about ten years ago. Once, while we were watching videos of our group, one person wanted to watch hers over again and he told her that we shouldn't sit around watching bad skiing all day, but instead should go outside and watch him ski. I am sure he as correct, but ....

 

[Paul S.]

I don't think that's what Bob means. He means don't try to muscularly turn the skis across the snow surface. Tip the skis and let them do their thing. Allow the skis to head in the direction they are pointing, and you go with them. They will turn because they will bend. Tipping the skis will be a lateral move, of course. What gets people in trouble in crud is trying to manually turn the skis when they are embedded in a type of snow that resists that rotation.

To teach this, teach them to carve on a low-pitch groomer. Tip the skis onto their new edges to start a turn, wait, find out what they do. No pivoting, no rotarizing, no femur rotating to manually "turn" the skis. Tip them more, find out what they do. Tip them more and go faster, find out what they do. Do this on progressively steeper terrain. Learn what turning powers your skis have built into them. Discover how to manipulate turn radius with tipping and bending the skis, instead of rotarizing them when they are mostly flat. Purge the pivot. This is very hard to teach if the skier has been manually rotating skis to start turns for years; it has become unconscious and they don't realize they are doing it.



Your thread title sounds like you want to address moving the underfoot pressure from tip to tail, along the ski, or something like that, which is another issue.

I am not sure that is what I necessarily want to address under foot pressure, but it may be part of the puzzle. I want the outcome to be elimination of lateral/defensive moves and the increase of flow in a positive direction.

 

[Paul S.]

I think this is part of it, but not all of what Bob means. He means to move with the skis. That means that the body stays over the ski and travels along the path of the ski -- not exactly, as the feet will travel a longer distance than the body, but it DOES MEAN that the skis are not being pushed away from the path of the body.

Personally, this has been probably the biggest issue in my own skiing and I see it in the vast majority of skiers, including level 3 certified skiers. One of the differentiating factors between those who can truly manipulate the ski to take them where they want to go is their ability to keep the connection to the skis so that the snow is traveling along the length of the ski rather than across the width of the ski. Given how few people I see can actually ski this way, and given how long it has taken me to start to get this element of ski performance, I don't think it is an easy thing to learn or master.

So, in response to the original question, how do you get folk to achieve this? I'll relate what my own experience was.

• It started with outside ski drills. Skiing tons of terrain to work on the relationship between the CoM and BoS. You are most likely pushing the ski around if you are on the inside ski. So, start with getting pressure to the outside ski.
• It continued with learning to drive the turn with the inside ski. Not that it has (much) pressure on it, but the inside ski/femur can "pull" the turn. JF Beaulieu calls the inside ski the decider, while the outside ski is the rider. It's the external femur rotation of the inside leg coupled with its shortening (pulling out and up) that gets turn shaped.
• Next was angulation. You've got to learn how to continue to direct pressure to the outside ski through body alignment. This means that the upper body has to remain over the ski, not dive in. You want to create edge by tipping the ankles and lower leg, not by tipping the upper body in.
• For that tipping move, you need to really work on tipping the lower leg. For this, I worked a lot on very short skis (136cm) that we use in teaching beginner lessons. Start with skating and learning how to create a platform against which you can push. That means you've got to learn to tip the lower leg first. Next, take it into J turns. Really focus on getting the outside knee to go in and down. Once you've got that, you can bring the inside leg back into the fold.

This is what I've been working on for over 5 years. It's not a simple process and I'm only now starting to put it all together.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for.
In my own skiing, when I get it right, my feet do travel over a longer path and as a result it feels as though I am pulling my feet from behind me.
Skating definitely provides the sensation of where the COM needs to go to get. the job done and I have used that a lot.
I think I am stuck on the next step - what to do to develop a strong (but not "overbearing") inside half? I do not often think about steering the inside leg because my sense is that the OS femur is longer therefore easier to rotate. I generally have very little pressure on the inside leg (considerable flexing) and do focus on tipping of the inside ankle. But, I never think much of steering the inside leg and definitely don't think of it as able to "pull the turn". This is definitely something to think about.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I am not sure that is what I necessarily want to address under foot pressure, but it may be part of the puzzle. I want the outcome to be elimination of lateral/defensive moves and the increase of flow in a positive direction.

....
My question: how do you teach moving the COM along he ski as opposed to moving it aterally?

Lateral as in banking/leaning inside? Defensive as in aft? That's the usual combo that we see in clients.

 

[Bad Bob]

You move along the skis in a 3D manor applying with your movements: weighting, leverage, edging, projection of COM (and a few more little things like that) are learned by experiencing them and made into natural motions through mileage.

As an instructor, why do you need to explain them? Do drills that will have your student experience them and watch them light up when they feel them. You don't need to know how to make beer to drink one.

 

[geepers]

There are two Bob Barnes in PSIA Rocky Mountain, and both are long-time examiners in the division. There's Winter Park Bob Barnes, who is the head of the ski school there. And there is "our" Bob Barnes, who currently is an instructor and trainer at Aspen Highlands, and previously was at Copper, Keystone, Copper, and Breckenridge.

Mike

As I found out - see posts above. Spent a good part of last evening going through pugski Bob's vids. Excellent stuff. The only vid wrong is the Reuel Christie. Not the skiing - it's that we should never again wear ski clothes from the 70s and 80s.

 

[geepers]

Interesting. He tells us to "stand on two feet". And when he skies down the moguls in the final seconds, you see him lifting his inside foot. No wonder skiers get confused.

Winter Park Bob's drill is about keeping skis parallel ('parallel to the max') as he claims it's important for mogul skiing. And it doesn't help to have our skis pointing in different directions. Not sure the context for when/whom he'd feel the need for such a drill. Can't say the thought "going into the bumps, must drill some 360s" has ever sprung to mind.

Guess it highlights the importance of understanding the context of instruction. That can be a bit difficult in a 2 hour lesson and damn hard from a 90 second vid.

 

[LiquidFeet]

That Bob Barnes, the one at Winter Park, is a bump skier. And a nice guy. And funny. Oh so funny.

 

[MikeS]

Ask them in relation to any vehicle is it easier to manoeuvre it sideways or in a forward direction with a little momentum?

Easier, or more fun?

 

[jimtransition]

FWIW. I skied with the Winter Park BB for five days at Snowbird about ten years ago. Once, while we were watching videos of our group, one person wanted to watch hers over again and he told her that we shouldn't sit around watching bad skiing all day, but instead should go outside and watch him ski. I am sure he as correct, but ....

I used to work for Bob and can definitely hear him saying that.