Seldomski

Paralysis by analysis
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
1,151
lol loopy turns lead to traversing?

How and why?

b

not sure I traverse once here and the literal goal was loopy turns.
I think they would criticize how far displaced laterally your feet are in these turns. One 'issue' is if you hit some bad patch or ice with your feet to the side, bad things happen. You are not as stacked as they want you to be. They want stacking to maximize flex/extend absorption.

You don't traverse laterally because you ski better than me. When I make "loopy" turns and make (frequent) mistakes, I end up traversing when I get aft or edge too hard.

I think your skiing is very nice. It's not what these coaches are teaching. They want your upper body and head to go straight down the fall line with feet below. If your feet are displaced laterally, the theory is you cannot absorb as effectively.
 
Thread Starter
TS
MarkG

MarkG

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Posts
51
Location
Dublin, CA
I did ask John this specifically. They pay a % to Whistler. They haven't seen any changes since Vail took over, though they were worried about it. The summer camp brings in some $$ in lodging and associated expenses in the otherwise dead off season. It's perceived to be a big draw in the freestyle community.
I was in on that conversation too, I think. There was also an element of being Grandfathered in. My interpretation, VR didn't want to change too much too soon at Whistler...and revenue is revenue


Also, FYI John was on an Armada ski. Zero AR8 I think.


Final Miscellaneous Fact: I got 500 points for telling Smart that I am a better skier than he is.
 
Last edited:

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,125
Lol slide out hitting an ice patch? I ski at Stowe they are at whistler and just because you or they traverse doesn’t mean a skier who has practiced releasing down the hill will ever traverse. Sounds like pure quackery.
 

Guy in Shorts

Tree Psycho
Skier
Joined
Feb 27, 2016
Posts
1,404
Location
Killington
Lol slide out hitting an ice patch? I ski at Stowe they are at whistler and just because you or they traverse doesn’t mean a skier who has practiced releasing down the hill will ever traverse. Sounds like pure quackery.
Lots of bumps on Quackery as that was the warm-up off the double before you arrived at the Glen Gathering Day.
 

Seldomski

Paralysis by analysis
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
1,151
@Josh Matta - I am not an expert on their technique. I took the clinic for just 2 days. I am not able to discuss the technical "why" with you further.

The clinic produced improvements in everyone's bump skiing. I got a lot out of it. Wasn't quackery to any of us.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,125
So the thing is the "loopy" line should have more edge grip than a pivot slam line because the the edges are being ask less of though out the turn, and the ski should be cutting though the snow, then sliding sideways trying to find grip.

So do you have a before or after video of your skiing then? What specfic skill and technique did you improve upon?

I also wouldnt care what they think. Comp bump skiing doesnt work where I ski.

@Guy in Shorts yeah I missed the first quackery run, but as you know I am a hack at skiing bumps.
 

martyg

Out on the slopes
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
869
@martyg - my experience was positive. I can only speak to a single 2 day winter clinic, not the week-long summer version. But there was definitely a different flavor to the lesson vs. PSIA/CSIA lessons I have had.





These comments specifically highlight a difference in the lesson. In any other lesson I have had, I would expect 99% of certified instructors to adjust the lesson plan to make sure @MarkG was ready for moguls and not likely to injury. Not so with these guys. So I do see a different attitude - they did not seem to be as protective/safety conscious of students. Atmosphere was more cavalier and informal vs. most other lessons. They also intend to ski bell to bell, regardless of how students were doing/struggling. Again, for a PSIA/CSIA class, I would expect the instructor to tone it down when some in group are struggling. For the clinic, they don't offer to escort student down or download, or anything like that.

Their attitude is more -- we'll see you at the bar if you're tired. This is an athletic activity. You might get hurt. You're an adult, do what you want. If you hurt yourself in the course of trying to ski this stuff, it's on you. CSIA/PSIA instructors I have had would almost certainly be much more polite and gracious toward students (who are paying $$). Make sure they get down before they suspect a student is over-terrained/tired or an injury is likely.

Again, this is in my VERY LIMITED experience - one 2 day class. They have been running these camps/clinics for ~30 years so something must be working? Personally, I am OK with this style approach because I am always willing to say no to something if I think I will get hurt. Others may not be as self aware, or feel pressured to keep going and end in injury - I could see this style not working for some people. For feedback (if any Momentum guys are reading this), I'd suggest stating this sort of attitude up front each day of the lesson. Most other lessons I have had, I feel like the instructor creates a protective bubble and won't ask me to do things that have significant risk.

EDIT to add: Not saying I ever felt unsafe in any of this. I can't speak to @MarkG level of comfort in any of this. Not trying to scare people, just noting a difference here. I don't feel the coaches were ever reckless or cold-hearted. They did genuinely care about the students, but were not as protective of students as I have seen in certified instructors. IMO some certified instructors are too risk averse.
That's awesome. Perhaps new ownership, or ownership attained anew level of professionalism. Enjoy.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,260
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
You mean, why does Whistler (Vail) allow them to operate?

I don't know about this one in particular but Whistler has other companies that operate on the mountain too... like the Extremely Canadian guides that operate all season. I guess Vail either makes enough off the licensing, or doesn't want the PR backlash of not allowing these kinds of instruction/guiding.
Extremely Canadian is owned by Vail. All of the instructors are ski school staff, although the core staff does nothing but Extremely Canadian guiding/camps/lessons.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,260
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
So the thing is the "loopy" line should have more edge grip than a pivot slam line because the the edges are being ask less of though out the turn, and the ski should be cutting though the snow, then sliding sideways trying to find grip.

So do you have a before or after video of your skiing then? What specfic skill and technique did you improve upon?

I also wouldnt care what they think. Comp bump skiing doesnt work where I ski.

@Guy in Shorts yeah I missed the first quackery run, but as you know I am a hack at skiing bumps.
@Josh Matta, you are a very good skier and I think a pretty good instructor. I don't get why you don't see that skiing a direct line with more of a competitive bump technique might be a valid ski style. It's just another tool in the tool kit. In some ways, it might improve other elements of your skiing -- after all, greater dynamic range translates into dynamic performance short and medium radius turns as well as into steep skiing. It seems to me that this is an area that you could spend some of your time to investigate, practice, and perfect. And you might find that comp bump technique might work where you ski -- but it does require some mastery to be able to apply it there. Then again, maybe not.

For full disclosure, I have no ability to ski comp bumps, but I'm working on it.

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

lurking
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,126
Location
New England
@Seldomski, I get the sense that you felt the instructors challenged the group of students, pushing them from bell to bell to ski the direct line as fast as possible, and that this challenge might have put some of them at risk of injury, but that these were adult students so they were responsible for saying no when they felt the risk felt was too high. You compare this two-day clinic with lessons taught by PSIA/CSIA instructors who "create a protective bubble" when teaching adults, a bubble that isn't needed, and that "some certified instructors are too risk averse." You say, "I would expect the [PSIA/CSIA] instructor to tone it down when some in group are struggling" and "to adjust the lesson plan" when students are not ready and are likely to injure themselves, but these guys didn't do that. Your reading of the leaders not toning it down was through the lens of safety. I think you felt just fine with the way the two days were handled safety-wise and never personally felt in danger.

I'd like to let that safety business just sit there while I focus on how they taught technique. From what you say above, they address stance (more forward than you think), poles (light touch on upside of bump), flexion/absorption (more than you think as you ski up the bump, even lower at the top), turn initiation (roll knees while low on top of bump), turn completion (don't), line (narrower than you think straight down fall line), tempo (faster, faster), and vision (look ahead, see the line before your feet get there). That's a lot for people who don't already have some of those things embedded. Each one takes conscious attention to get to work when they are unfamiliar and not yet intuitive. And none of us is good at paying conscious attention to more than one thing at a time.

How did the instructors break down those things to help the students have success? Did they address them in isolation, in slow motion, one at a time, broken down into baby steps, on easy terrain first, watching for student technical success, before ramping up the difficulty of the terrain? Or did they keep having the group ski the direct line in challenging bumps with the intention of inserting one of these things (forward stance, absorb low, roll knees, etc) into that run?

The reason I'm asking is this. I'm wondering if they not only didn't adjust their teaching for the purpose of insuring safety, the thing you noticed, but didn't adjust their teaching to insure technical success either. I've taken a two day bump clinic (led by a big name Olympian) that did not break down the things we were being taught into isolation exercises that would allow some success before taking the task to the targeted bumps. We were asked to ski the direct line in bumps that were over our skill level, while watching the leaders do it so easily. Each run we were asked to insert one good thing into our run. Surviving the run came first, and I felt that this approach used up all the available RAM, leaving little for the assigned unfamiliar movement pattern. In other words, they didn't break down the tasks enough, on easy terrain first, so people could feel what it's supposed to feel like and hunger for more. The learning wasn't so impressive in those two days in my group, and I had a friend in another group who reported the same. I didn't think of my disappointment in the the camp's approach as a safety issue but a pedagogical issue. The worst way to look at this is to see it as a participant problem, saying that the participants did not have what it takes. I heard this from one of the teachers, not my group's instructor but the one teaching the lowest group. I find that problematic.

I'm wondering if your situation might have been somewhat similar.
 
Last edited:

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,125
@Josh Matta, you are a very good skier and I think a pretty good instructor. I don't get why you don't see that skiing a direct line with more of a competitive bump technique might be a valid ski style. It's just another tool in the tool kit. In some ways, it might improve other elements of your skiing -- after all, greater dynamic range translates into dynamic performance short and medium radius turns as well as into steep skiing. It seems to me that this is an area that you could spend some of your time to investigate, practice, and perfect. And you might find that comp bump technique might work where you ski -- but it does require some mastery to be able to apply it there. Then again, maybe not.

For full disclosure, I have no ability to ski comp bumps, but I'm working on it.

Mike
the things is I can ski a very direct line and even ski the comp line if it present, but impactful and less versatile on real world bumps. heck you can say I ever practice it simply to be able to demo it, and troll people in real life.

Its not that I dont think its not valid, its just I think that honestly its the less valid bump technique especially at the new england resort killington being an exception....... I will say it worked better at A basin than any place I ever skied....heck @tball saw me skiing A basin bumps.

I also mistrust 99 percent of coaching and teaching from those that used their name to get into coaching, versus those like Reilly and Bob Barnes who are only known for their coaching. The vast majority of people who pay for a thing like a straightline camp, momentuem, insert big name here camp will tell you how awesome it is because they choose it, and they paid a ton of money for it. So that is kinda of why I would love to see a before and after video of the participants, that video wouldnt lie.
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister-- Aspen 2021
Moderator
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
6,176
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Extremely Canadian is owned by Vail. All of the instructors are ski school staff, although the core staff does nothing but Extremely Canadian guiding/camps/lessons.
Thanks for that info... I didn't realize. Were they purchased at the same time as WB? Or have they always been Vail owned? Or other?
 

Seldomski

Paralysis by analysis
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
1,151
@LiquidFeet - @MarkG mentioned some of this already -- the coaches did spend a lot of time with each student. Breaking down what they liked and didn't and giving a single focus for the next section of the run. They also kept us in blue, slushy bumps. There was also a section that was probably green with bumps on it. So they were good at keeping us in the easiest bump terrain and finding the easiest line in that terrain to ski. We often skied one by one to the coach, the talked individually to the coach. Then the coach waved down the next student. It was bell to bell skiing, but only 10k vert. So there was a lot of instruction. When there are 5 in a group, there is some waiting that happens...

Schedule for each day was roughly --
9AM on lift. Ski groomers until noon, working on short turns. Then lunch (basically killing time for the bumps to thaw). Spend 1-4pm in the bumps. IDK what they do in mid winter.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,125
why do you need the bumps to thaw?
 

LiquidFeet

lurking
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,126
Location
New England
@Seldomski it sounds like I interpreted your camp wrong then. I must have missed what @MarkG said. I'm glad they broke things down so much.

So what made you talk about risk of injury? I'm curious.
 

Seldomski

Paralysis by analysis
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
1,151
I've probably blown things out of proportion by making assumptions... sorry. On both Day 1 and 2, there was 1 student in the groups I was in who could have used more time on the groomers to work on thing (IMHO -- I am *NOT* an instructor). In prior group lessons I have had, usually the instructor would make an attempt at bumps, then abort mission after seeing a student struggle like this in bumps. I *assume* that they do this to prevent injury. Or maybe they think it is not a good learning environment? Personally, I liked that we stayed in bumps. All students were kept in the same bumps. Instructors still gave careful attention to those struggling most, but didn't jump back to working on things in groomers in the afternoon. Prior instructors I have had would *probably* force everyone back out of the bumps. In these lessons, that didn't happen.

Does that make sense?
 
Last edited:
Top