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Mogul Clinics... your thoughts?

karlo

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f you were moving along with the skier at the same speed, it would look as the skiers feet is making a reverse pedal motion on a bicycle.

seems to me like they're the same thing from a different perspective

me too. Turn off the audio of the Gellie and Martin videos, looks exactly the same to me.

The underlying goal is the same, keeping the feet under the hip. The difference is in its subtlety, the bicycle back pedal is foot centric, bottom up thinking. The hip drive is COM centric, moving the hip with a

Ooohh! That's for sure different.

Another way for anyone considering working on mogul skiing to study muscle activations required to achieve these motions and goals. What needs to be done to get the feet under hip or to get the hip forward? IMO, I think use core to flex, use hamstrings and glutes to extend. Think moving femurs, not torso, when extending and flexing, with hips as the hinge. Precise dryland drills and exercises will develop that mental attention to detail and the muscle memory, making any lesson or clinic more effective.

I wish dryland skiing clinics were available.
 

geepers

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me too. Turn off the audio of the Gellie and Martin videos, looks exactly the same to me.



Ooohh! That's for sure different.

Another way for anyone considering working on mogul skiing to study muscle activations required to achieve these motions and goals. What needs to be done to get the feet under hip or to get the hip forward? IMO, I think use core to flex, use hamstrings and glutes to extend. Think moving femurs, not torso, when extending and flexing, with hips as the hinge. Precise dryland drills and exercises will develop that mental attention to detail and the muscle memory, making any lesson or clinic more effective.

I wish dryland skiing clinics were available.

There's an earlier (2016) vid from Tom with more info on the posture/muscle engagement in moguls.

 

karlo

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There's an earlier (2016) vid from Tom with more info on the posture/muscle engagement in moguls.


Wow, perfect! But, Sydney’s kinda far for me to attend a dryland clinic. But, there’s YouTube!
 

green26

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Sometimes with all the cross talk, we forget about the OP. I think most experienced skiers here all believe it's the journey. If you are a fairly athletic skier, almost any camp will do with the exception of Bumps for Boomers. B4B is catering to a different clientele.
This will be you first bump camp. Hopefully it won't be your last. Enjoy the journey.



Doug was my first ski week instructor back in 1989. Had him several times over the years. Still free ski with him on occasions. Good guy.
Most of the senior instructors at Taos are very good. Many have been there for decades. They all have different styles in both skiing and teaching. A lot depends on what you want to learn and chemistry.

Just my usual bizarre perspective, please don't read this. I've done 3 ski weeks with Doug at Taos. We ski there every year for a couple weeks. And have been bump skiing since I was perhaps 12 in New England. Only speaking for myself, bump skiing is indistinguishable from skiing in general, all on the same continuum. Everybody lights up with different prompts at different times. for example, and for me, the most important lesson I learned was without skis on, doing C's and S's with the edges of my boots during a ski week. At the end of the C Doug shortened my inside leg and turned it to make the S while he made a kid's zooming noise. That did it (for me! :) At this stage of my skiing career, fundamentals on groomers informs all other terrain skiing. Kinda like, if I can't carve well on a groomer, my skiing is missing something on all other terrain and no matter how well I ski Dog Leg or Walkeries Chute, or What's, I feel like I coulda done that a lot better. What is that? I suppose I want to feel aligned with the mountain. Like riding a bucking bronco well, in the flow with it, everything in me aligned with what I'm doing, with respect for and honoring the mountain. working with the challenge, the fear sometimes that motivates me to my best game. The video earlier in this thread from Mammoth, I've done those bump lines in the spring dozens of times. but the rest of the year I'm out mixing it up. Those lines have so much to do with rhythm, while in most of my skiing off piste, only for small amounts of time. I'm just babbling and lazy to not explain more. Just seems like isolating "bump" skiing is somehow beside the point. Wholistic! That's the word! For me, every specific focus in skiing informs every other area. Then there are tactics, dealing with fear, chaotic and possibly dangerous terrain etc, but that's another paragraph and I'm going to bed.
 

Scruffy

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Wholistic! That's the word! For me, every specific focus in skiing informs every other area. .

Correct. I think we need to operate on the assumption that that is understood in order to have meaningful conversation about skiing technique.
 

no edge

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.

Another way for anyone considering working on mogul skiing to study muscle activations required to achieve these motions and goals. What needs to be done to get the feet under hip or to get the hip forward? IMO, I think use core to flex, use hamstrings and glutes to extend. Think moving femurs, not torso, when extending and flexing, with hips as the hinge.

Hams are not used for extension. They draw the lower leg back.

Back pedal!
 

agreen

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I've taken several advanced lessons at Mammoth but never the actual bump clinic so I cant comment specifically on that except to say I haven't had much luck from the instructors in terms of good mogul skiing training when I asked for it. I just dont think of Mammoth hand in hand with good bumps. I would say my favorite runs for decent bumps are The Acts (near Canyon) and lower Grizzly (Chair 22) and skiers left on Chair 5 (cant remember the name off hand). I'm sure some may say Chair 3 also. Maybe others will disagree here but IMO there just arent many really good bump lines at Mammoth. So getting back to the OPs original question I'd recommend going elsewhere for good mogul skiing instruction like MJ or Whistler or Aspen.
 

no edge

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... bump skiing is indistinguishable from skiing in general, all on the same continuum.

...At this stage of my skiing career, fundamentals on groomers informs all other terrain skiing. Kinda like, if I can't carve well on a groomer, my skiing is missing something on all other terrain and no matter how well..

Just seems like isolating "bump" skiing is somehow beside the point. Wholistic! That's the word! For me, every specific focus in skiing informs every other area. Then there are tactics, dealing with fear, chaotic and possibly dangerous terrain etc, but that's another paragraph and I'm going to bed.

I learned bumps when I was young, then really stepped it up during my 20s. Good skiing skills do transfer to bump skiing, but I believe that skiing in bumps draws on unique technique and skills. Also, picking the line, dealing with the constant variation of the terrain and knowing what you can or cannot do with a large or cut-off bump. Fear is also a part. Having the skills to stay centered, and the finesse to keep control and stay calm under challenging circumstances. It's a whole new world and the skills do transfer. But skiing bumps is a skill unto itself.
 

CS2-6

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skiing bumps is a skill unto itself.
I agree with this completely. I'm no expert by any stretch, but it seems to me there is "skiing in the moguls" and then there is "mogul skiing". Nothing against either approach, but mogul skiing is definitely a different skill set. I've watched a number of skiers far better than I'll ever be ski in the moguls, but I've only ever seen a handful of bump skiers. When someone tells me they ski the bumps just like they ski the rest of the mountain, I can be pretty confident without ever seeing them make a turn that they aren't mogul skiing.
 

no edge

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The issue that bothers me is the suggestion that a skier who doesn't have quick turns or have poor fore/aft balance... and other weaknesses, cannot go into the bumps. It has been said that groomers can be a good place to learn the skills needed in the bumps. This is true, but you still need to try bumps - easy bumps if want to get better. I am not suggesting Outer LImits. I've gotten banged up plenty of times there.

I have also seen where skiing bumps helps with other types of skiing like woods and groomers. What can be learned in the bumps and the woods will make skiing more fun elsewhere.
 

Noodler

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Well, like all our mogul topic threads this one has drifted, but I'll chime in on the clinics first since that was the OP's question.

I have done quite of a few mogul clinics over the years at both WP/MJ and Copper. I definitely picked up on some nice tips and mental keys to use when skiing bumps, but in no way did any of those clinics really get to the "core" of turn skills improvement and try to "rebuild" anyone's skiing. This really was necessary for many of the participants, but they just don't have the time usually to go there. I've never done the Mogul Logic camps, but have seen info and heard that maybe you will get that since it's a more intensive camp, not just a clinic. Of the clinics I attended, I preferred the WP/MJ ones over Copper. WP/MJ has better bumps and attracts a higher level of bump skier.

On the topic of actually skiing moguls, of course it starts with the quality of the turns and requires a few more skills added in, but the main issue for 99% of any recreational skier that ventures into the bumps is that their turn release method is exactly opposite of what's needed in the bumps. Most skiers extend to release instead of flexing to release. Extending to release in the bumps does not (cannot) achieve smooth bump skiing. That's why most of these skiers feel like they're on a "bucking bronco" when they head into the bumps.

If you learn to ski turns using a flexing release on the groomers, then you're immediately going to have more success when you venture into the bumps. That's why you'll see lots of comments about how you can improve your bump skiing by practicing on the groomers. However, it's not just about learning how to make a quick short turn, but more about what technique you're using to make those quick short turns.

Learn how to turn use a flex to release, use it everywhere, all the time. Then there really isn't much else needed when you ski bumps.
 

Josh Matta

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I agree with this completely. I'm no expert by any stretch, but it seems to me there is "skiing in the moguls" and then there is "mogul skiing". Nothing against either approach, but mogul skiing is definitely a different skill set. I've watched a number of skiers far better than I'll ever be ski in the moguls, but I've only ever seen a handful of bump skiers. When someone tells me they ski the bumps just like they ski the rest of the mountain, I can be pretty confident without ever seeing them make a turn that they aren't mogul skiing.

specifically what different skills, and techniques do you use in bumps that you do not use skiing else where?
 

mdf

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Extending to release in the bumps does not (cannot) achieve smooth bump skiing.
I used to have that problem. It can lead to what I call "double pumping" where you go up and down once to release and then again to absorb the bump. Takes way too long and leads to timing problems.
 

Crank

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At it's core skiing comes down to balance. Balancing on an edge or the flat base of your ski or skis while gravity pulls you downhill. Yes this is super non technical and basic ignoring almost everything else we talk about when talking technique. In moguls that balancing act must be achieved on an irregular, lumpy surface thus adding in a new challenge that is simply not happening when skiing, balancing, on a smooth surface.
 

Josh Matta

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yes but you can learn those balance skills anywhere does not have to be in the bumps....in fact for most people learning those skills in the bumps leads to some pretty apprehensive skiing. IMO once learned bump skiing has easier lateral balance because the bumps supports where as the smooth surface of hard groomer does not.
 

LiquidFeet

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....IMO once learned bump skiing has easier lateral balance because the bumps supports where as the smooth surface of hard groomer does not.

Some years ago when I was still a pretty clumsy bump skier, I discovered that on day one, when my mountain would open with a single densely crowded WROD, it was easier for me to ski the bumped-up portion of that one open trail than the other option, which ended up being scraped-down ice.

The bumps would act like a staircase, with nice flattish steps and banked ramps offering good support for every turn. So I agree with Josh in this case. Soft one-day old bumps are easier to ski than smooth ice, even with only so-so bump skills. They demand less precision - than hard snow or ice - because the skier can guide the skis flat onto the bump shoulders and ride them around.

I think that's the support Josh is talking about.
 
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Seldomski

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I didn't get 'flex to release' in turns until I learned it in moguls. Then I took that and used it on groomers - neat stuff! There are things that are necessary to do correctly in the bumps or you will get punished. On a groomer, I don't get punished for mistakes. So I find it helpful to actually learn bumps in bumps. Then go back to groomer, work again on the same thing, then go back to bumps, etc. The method of perfecting on flats, then going to the bumps simply doesn't work for me. I need the feedback from the bumps. On the flats, I don't get the immediate feedback that I am doing something wrong. In a lesson I can revert to old habits pretty quickly on the flats since I don't feel the improvement.
 

KingGrump

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I didn't get 'flex to release' in turns until I learned it in moguls. Then I took that and used it on groomers - neat stuff! There are things that are necessary to do correctly in the bumps or you will get punished. On a groomer, I don't get punished for mistakes. So I find it helpful to actually learn bumps in bumps. Then go back to groomer, work again on the same thing, then go back to bumps, etc. The method of perfecting on flats, then going to the bumps simply doesn't work for me. I need the feedback from the bumps. On the flats, I don't get the immediate feedback that I am doing something wrong. In a lesson I can revert to old habits pretty quickly on the flats since I don't feel the improvement.

Some of us are more hard headed than others.
 

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