Mogul Clinics... your thoughts?

[David Chan]

Athletes who overstate their abilities need to be put in a "theory" class. It's a bump class, but we are keeping them away from any bumps.

You can teach them quick turns of groomers, but it's not the same. Mini bumps offer great opportunity for timing quick turns and skidding. Kids in Vermont wedge their way down difficult trails. They are learning about bumps!

If you are limiting this discussion to ski school then maybe it's one and done. But go in the bumps to get good.

I’m not disagreeing with you. If I’m taking out a group lesson that was supposed to be bumps but some members of the class would be unsafe in bumps of any kind, we have to have to teach to the lowest skier for safety. Full disclosure I will tell the class this, and offer to have their lesson refunded or rescheduled if that is not what they want. I currently have the trust of my supervisors and they will back me on most of these types of decisions. I suspect many instructors don’t have this trust.

Many instructors can’t or are not willing to teach “multiple lessons” at the same time. Some are told by their supervisors not to. This is where the supervisors have to “back” an instructors decision. The instructors need to be able understand the differences as well. The athletes that overstate their abilities are a totally different issue. If I get one in a private lesson, it’s an easy fix. Take them in let them struggle, work on groomers a little to fix a deficiency and take them in again showing them how it helps. Then back to easier terrain for another fix, and then back to the bumps.

This is one of the places an experienced upper level instructor is worth the extra effort.

 

[no edge]

It's only fair to agree that a group lesson poses problems for teaching bumps. That's true even with more mature skiers.

Moving away from the PSIA (is that it?), it's not a good comparison to look at a lesson v. six week season of skiers with similar skills. They are out there skiing it all. Mini-competitions pop up, they support each other with feedback, complements. Learning by watching the others skill is huge. They develop enough so that the most difficult terrain leaves them with more confidence.

But possibly the most important factor is being in the bumps - experience and practice. Learning to ski bumps requires an appropriate level of challenge and good coaching.

 

[David Chan]

Can’t compare a walk in request for a bump lesson, vs any targeted full day or multiday clinic.

No argument there but the OP Ken, asked for a suggestion for an instructor/instruction and was apparently was trying to find a walk in or less than a full on “clinic”

 

[Scruffy]

Maybe we're getting to the crux of the problem? Group lessons catering to the lowest common denominator, and the mountain attempting to squeeze that penny over and over again, and not enough mogul camps.

How is it that Taos Ski Week is so successful at Taos, and that model is not ubiquitous?

 

[KingGrump]

How is it that Taos Ski Week is so successful at Taos, and that model is not ubiquitous?

Taos has an abundance of gravity.
Bumps are the norm at Taos rather than the exception.
A large pool of advanced skiers participating in the ski week program. There is a large cadre of regulars (idiots) that keep returning for ski week every season. Some of the multiple times in a season for decades. Their attendance lends the program stability and keeps the bar higher.

TBH, there is a dearth of easier bump runs at most resort. One of the reason is the brutal grooming and the other is liability. Most bump runs are black run on steeper pitches.
Most blue bump runs I have run across in my travels all have God awful bumps. Every beater on the hill is skiing that because it’s got a blue rating. They know they are not gonna die on a blue run. The bumps are often irregular and misshapen. Not an ideal place for an intro to bump skiing. So back to starting the lesson on the black.
The dearth of good easy bump runs raises the bar for entry to bump skiing requiring improved fundamentals. Hence the required fundamental drills on the groom prior to dropping into the bumps.

Even at Taos there is only one good blue bump run for budding bump skiers - Lone Star. Tell Glade may be rated as a blue but it is a black anywhere else.

 

[Scruffy]

Taos has an abundance of gravity.
Bumps are the norm at Taos rather than the exception.
A large pool of advanced skiers participating in the ski week program. There is a large cadre of regulars (idiots) that keep returning for ski week every season. Some of the multiple times in a season for decades. Their attendance lends the program stability and keeps the bar higher.

TBH, there is a dearth of easier bump runs at most resort. One of the reason is the brutal grooming and the other is liability. Most bump runs are black run on steeper pitches.
Most blue bump runs I have run across in my travels all have God awful bumps. Every beater on the hill is skiing that because it’s got a blue rating. They know they are not gonna die on a blue run. The bumps are often irregular and misshapen. Not an ideal place for an intro to bump skiing. So back to starting the lesson on the black.
The dearth of good easy bump runs raises the bar for entry to bump skiing requiring improved fundamentals. Hence the required fundamental drills on the groom prior to dropping into the bumps.

Even at Taos there is only one good blue bump run for budding bump skiers - Lone Star. Tell Glade may be rated as a blue but it is a black anywhere else.

Yes. I love Taos for that

Maybe other mountains need to follow the "if you build it they will come model". Liability? What's this liability you speak of? Don't we sign that away when we buy our lift ticket/season passes? Dearth? Scarce as Hen's teeth these days. Catering to the lowest common denominator, all this grooming.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
TBH, there is a dearth of easier bump runs at most resort. One of the reason is the brutal grooming and the other is liability. Most bump runs are black run on steeper pitches.
Most blue bump runs I have run across in my travels all have God awful bumps. ....

This is true here in New England as well. You're going to have a very hard time finding a green bump run anywhere, except on a powder day in the afternoon and that can't be planned for ahead of time. Those bumps will be groomed out and gone the next day.

The mountain where I currently teach (Bretton Woods in NH) has a wide long bump run that is excellent for teaching bumps. It's worthy. There is also a solid green pitch lift line with bumps, but it's narrow with towers in the middle so the bumps get a bit irregular. The mountain also has numerous large green-pitched glades with widely spaced trees and very easy bumps. It's entertaining and beautiful in there. There are a few blue-pitched glades with moderately tight trees, one even has a sudden drop that feels like a cliff to uncertain bumpers, and there are a few genuinely black-pitch bump runs with and without trees. Several longer blue-black glades hide deep in the woods. And we have some goat paths with luge lines for the young and aggressive skiers. Those are shaped mostly by snowboarders on powder days, then they freeze up. Kids on short skis can wedge their way through these.

A novice or intermediate bump skier looking to move up and down the bump difficulty ladder can have a very good bump day here. This aspect of Bretton Woods tends to get overlooked by groomer-only skiers who know the mountain as a fairly flat hill filled with immaculately groomed blue-green trails and nice views. The mountain is sometimes viewed as beneath their dignity by skiers who consider themselves experts because they like going fast on steep icy groomers.

A beginner or intermediate bump skier can do that wide long bump run multiple times messing around with turn mechanics and line choice. The top part is "steepest" and pitched as a medium blue - but it's short. For a beginner the bumps at the top can be daunting. But it flattens out soon to a blue-green pitch for a good while with nice round bumps. Then there is a pinched area in the middle where some widely spaced trees force skiers into squeeze spots. Things get "interesting" for a beginner bumper in there. Then the run flattens out into green banana bumps for a reasonable distance where new bumpers can work on skiing a direct line.

Even so, we don't get many requests for bump lessons. Most of the adults taking instruction are beginners, novices, or low level intermediates who need help navigating those beautiful blue pitch groomers.

 

[KingGrump]

Even so, we don't get many requests for bump lessons for adults. Most of the adults taking lessons as beginners, novices, or low level intermediates.

Most better skiers do not take lessons. They figured they are "experts" since they can "make it down" an black run. They usually ski with a stiff legged bracing stance on the groomers. Wiping their ski tails from side to side. That illusion gets shattered quick when they get onto a bump run. Most figured a lesson will fix that in short order. One and done.
Unfortunately, the fix is neither quick nor easy.

Most think they can own it in a 2 hour group lesson. Yeah, really.
Some may be a bit more conservative and sign up for a three or five day camp. I mean how hard can it be?
I am a bit dense. OK, a lot dense. I've done 30+ ski weeks at Taos and I am still working on it. I know a quite a few out there with lot more ski weeks than I do and they are still working on it.
Patience, stupidity, pig headed stubbornness, senility, old age. Whatever works. Just keep plugging at it. It doesn't come over night.

 

[martyg]

Most better skiers do not take lessons. They figured they are "experts" since they can "make it down" an black run. They usually ski with a stiff legged bracing stance on the groomers. Wiping their ski tails from side to side. That illusion gets shattered quick when they get onto a bump run. Most figured a lesson will fix that in short order. One and done.
Unfortunately, the fix is neither quick nor easy.

Most think they can own it in a 2 hour group lesson. Yeah, really.
Some may be a bit more conservative and sign up for a three or five day camp. I mean how hard can it be?
I am a bit dense. OK, a lot dense. I've done 30+ ski weeks at Taos and I am still working on it. I know a quite a few out there with lot more ski weeks than I do and they are still working on it.
Patience, stupidity, pig headed stubbornness, senility, old age. Whatever works. Just keep plugging at it. It doesn't come over night.

King - I’ve never been to Taos’ ski week, but from what I have heard it is less clinic and more skiing around with an instructor? You’re not, for example, side slipping and pivot slipping the mountain - top to bottom - all day long with video analysis as prep for bumps?

I’ve been high up on the food chain in kayaking, both competitively and instructionally. Improvement is a journey, and after 50+ years of skiing and paddling I still work at it, seeking out the best mentors for my level of ability. It is a journey, and some time after a year or two off I come back even more dialed.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I am still working on it. I know a quite a few out there with lot more ski weeks than I do and they are still working on it.
t.

I've been going downhill on skis since 1945 and I'm STILL working on it, especially bumps.

 

[dbostedo]

King - I’ve never been to Taos’ ski week, but from what I have heard it is less clinic and more skiing around with an instructor? You’re not, for example, side slipping and pivot slipping the mountain - top to bottom - all day long with video analysis as prep for bumps?

It depends on the conditions and instructor. 2 seasons ago, in a low snow year, my group largely just did drills on groomers... side slips, pivot slips, 360s, one footed side slips, one footed turns, various other drills (pole drags, pole balancing on forearms, entire runs of short radius turns, etc.)

Last year, with much better snow, we did less drills and skied around more - including some untouched glades and buried bumps. The group did want to learn bumps, and we did spend some time on short radius turns on groomers and in the bumps talking tactics and retraction and extension. But it was more of "skiing around with an instructor". I think the group collective desires largely drive this, and you can't necessarily pick a group that wants drills if that's what you want.

 

[martyg]

It depends on the conditions and instructor. 2 seasons ago, in a low snow year, my group largely just did drills on groomers... side slips, pivot slips, 360s, one footed side slips, one footed turns, various other drills (pole drags, pole balancing on forearms, entire runs of short radius turns, etc.)

Last year, with much better snow, we did less drills and skied around more - including some untouched glades and buried bumps. The group did want to learn bumps, and we did spend some time on short radius turns on groomers and in the bumps talking tactics and retraction and extension. But it was more of "skiing around with an instructor". I think the group collective desires largely drive this, and you can't necessarily pick a group that wants drills if that's what you want.

Right on. I was in one of PSIA's bump clinics / elective clinics. It was dumping. It turned into a powder clinic. It was all good!

 

[SSSdave]

no edge >>>"You can teach them quick turns of groomers, but it's not the same..."

If you watch Chuck Martin make short turns at the beginning of the video jack97 linked at post #42, at 0:10 he is making short turns on groomed. My own experience is your average advanced skier cannot make that short a turn. When I wrote I can make twice as many turns down such a groomed run than average advanced skiers that is what I was referring to. This is an example of a technique that can be honed on groomed. What he is doing is a bit different than most consider with their short turns. And the ability to do so is very useful in bumps as he is countering lower body right lefts with opposite torso movements initiated with his hands. Often in bumps one must make such quick left rights as that is about all the time one has to do. It's a game of being able to shift the center of balance of one's stacked body left right left right while keeping near that centered balance point. Of course there is also subtle edging going on down at his boots and ski edges thus he is not simply flat sliding 2 glued skis back and forth. On actual bumps that edging would be biting into the sides of moguls at just the right spot.

KingGrump >>>"Most blue bump runs I have run across in my travels all have God awful bumps. Every beater on the hill is skiing that because it’s got a blue rating. They know they are not gonna die on a blue run."

I often tell others, the top of Little Dipper off of Comet Express (Heavenly) is the best lower gradient bump run to practice on at Tahoe and it gets that way because there are more capable bump skiers skiing it 7 days a week than anywhere else in Tahoe due to the large population base of South Lake Tahoe. (Locals come out noonish for their lunch break.) Two key ingredients for good bumps is a high enough altitude for drier colder packed powder bumps (9k elevation) and good bump skiers frequently skiing those surfaces so snow remains loose. That is why they look so beautiful (to any bump skier haha) on my post #28. Just remember to bail out traversing through the trees skier's left to regain the blue Comet run. If one goes down too far (steepens) then bail right through trees though it is a ways and then take Jacks, another lower gradient run often left bumped up.

 

[KingGrump]

Most skiers that participate in the Taos ski week are not instructors. So fun is the main driving force. Much is dependent upon the composition of the group and the assigned instructor. If the majority of the group wants drills, drills it is. Same for steeps, bumps, trees, chutes & hikes.

Like @LouD-Truckee , I am a life long level 7 skier. I’ve been a level 7 for so long. They have a special level just for me – Super 7. Have few funny stories with that one.

There are usually couple PSIA examiners in the ski week rotation. They also do clinics with lower level instructors in the afternoon.

 

[Skisailor]

Low angle bumps for learning are the holy grail. Way back when I remember Camelback had a short green-pitched bump run - lower something or other - and Roundtop always had some seeded regular bumps off to one side of one of their beginner runs. I would ski those over and over and over again. It helped.

Now that I’ve been teaching at Big Sky I’ve come to appreciate the variety of bumps in green and blue terrain that we have to offer for aspiring bumpers. Some of them are wide open, non groomed runs, some are on the sides of otherwise groomed runs, and some are in glades with trees so widely spaced, they are not a problem - like Bretton Woods. But for the instructors - lots of choices. Green, blue or black.

 

[JESinstr]

Most better skiers do not take lessons. They figured they are "experts" since they can "make it down" an black run. They usually ski with a stiff legged bracing stance on the groomers. Wiping their ski tails from side to side. That illusion gets shattered quick when they get onto a bump run. Most figured a lesson will fix that in short order. One and done.
Unfortunately, the fix is neither quick nor easy.

Most think they can own it in a 2 hour group lesson. Yeah, really.
Some may be a bit more conservative and sign up for a three or five day camp. I mean how hard can it be?
I am a bit dense. OK, a lot dense. I've done 30+ ski weeks at Taos and I am still working on it. I know a quite a few out there with lot more ski weeks than I do and they are still working on it.
Patience, stupidity, pig headed stubbornness, senility, old age. Whatever works. Just keep plugging at it. It doesn't come over night.

You make an excellent point. To rip off the title of one of my favorite Moody Blues Albums it is, in the end, A Question of Balance.

The ability to focus one's balance reliably through the arch is fundamental to good skiing. In the bumps where there are all kinds of ups and downs and side to sides, it is imperative that you achieve on demand and maintain that balance triangle between the big toe ball, little toe ball and front part of the heel ie your skiing BOS. The problem is that this BOS implementation is different from the predominant heel to toe rocking you use in your everyday locomotions or heel biased static skeltal stance that keeps you from falling down.

Skiers who don't understand this are dooming themselves to a limited skiing experience. Those that unknowingly employ their daily balance (BOS) techniques to skiing will either end up in the back seat or use their upper body to the effort to invoke directional change which is a disaster in the making when it comes to bumps.

And as you implied there are many out there with back seat based skiing that can navigate and survive many of the steeps but bumps are a different story and they won't swallow their pride to understand that to fix their problem, the need to go back to square one and break a balance issue, that as you said, is very difficult to do.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....there are many out there with back seat based skiing that can navigate and survive many of the steeps but bumps are a different story....

^^This.
They think they are well-balanced, not aft. They just don't know.

 

[Crank]

Pretty sure the OP in the OP asked about mogul clinics specifically also mentioned afternoon clinics or lessons at Alta. I've done afternoon powder clinics at Alta but am not aware of any tye of bump workshop there. The afternoon pow clinics are pretty much guided skiing with a bit of instruction thrown in.

Also I don't think he mentioned a level of skier that he thought he was or is. Seems like most instructors just assumed if he wanted a bump clinic he needed something different.

 

[HDSkiing]

Most skiers that participate in the Taos ski week are not instructors. So fun is the main driving force. Much is dependent upon the composition of the group and the assigned instructor. If the majority of the group wants drills, drills it is. Same for steeps, bumps, trees, chutes & hikes.

Like @LouD-Truckee , I am a life long level 7 skier. I’ve been a level 7 for so long. They have a special level just for me – Super 7. Have few funny stories with that one.

There are usually couple PSIA examiners in the ski week rotation. They also do clinics with lower level instructors in the afternoon.

If you can get Doug DeCoursey (PSIA Level 3 examiner) he’s great. Just a great guy to ski with. He also does, or did do the tech talks on Tuesday evenings at the bar at the hotel St. Bernard. If your a PSIA card holder you used to be able to get into the Instructor clinics on Fri afternoons at no cost, but that may have since changed.

So like some of you I am approaching 50 seasons on skis, which just means I have nearly 50 years of bad habits built up....wherever you are in your skiing there is still that next level.

I tend to subconsciously or otherwise do MA on a constant basis (occupational hazard and to well, get better at it). One of the things I see most often is experienced skiers who get out maybe a dozen or less days a season. With lots of seasons under their belts They have learned to ski slightly aft, along with some other problematic tendencies, well enough to have fun and negotiate even easy groomed black terrain and unless they ask me, it’s none of my business how they ski so god bless them.

They’ll sign up for a lesson or multi week clinic and Most of the time they are unaware of what level skier they are (why would they be) instead relating to skiing “blues and blacks” whatever that means. So when they want a lesson in the bumps, as has been mentioned at length above, we have to deal with the fundamentals first, the biggest of which is their F/A to get them centered. So I can see the frustration, they signed up for a bump lesson but we’re on the groomed blue doing side slips, pivot slips or whatever. They have limited time in the lesson and limited days to ski. There’s really no easy answer to that rather typical situation.

For the OP I’m of the opinion that all training is good so a bump clinic/camp is something you should consider, just know where you are so that your expectations are realistic and you will take something away from it that will be beneficial.

Funny, in my teens and 20’s I thought nothing of skiing bumps at high speed right down the fall line, back then I could not have told someone how to do it. I’m not sure I even skied them as much as bounced from the top of one to the top of the next. Those days are gone, although on a hero snow day with a foot of fresh pow I might, which brings me to tactics, something that has to follow fundamentals.

When the fundamentals are solid then you can get into the bumps and start looking at the slope from a tactical perspective. Only then, whether you go want to go fast or just want a smooth consistent speed, or want to slowly pick your way down with confidence on any terrain will it really begin it to kick in. If you are just trying to survive the next rut it’s really hard to get the big picture.

Even if you don’t like bumps, go there it will be a gut check. Better yet video it if you can, chances are there will be some skill/fundamental that you will see that you can improve on, I know there is in my case. Going into the bumps keeps you HONEST, at least with yourself.

 

[KingGrump]

Sometimes with all the cross talk, we forget about the OP. I think most experienced skiers here all believe it's the journey. If you are a fairly athletic skier, almost any camp will do with the exception of Bumps for Boomers. B4B is catering to a different clientele.
This will be you first bump camp. Hopefully it won't be your last. Enjoy the journey.

If you can get Doug DeCoursey (PSIA Level 3 examiner) he’s great. Just a great guy to ski with. He also does, or did do the tech talks on Tuesday evenings at the bar at the hotel St. Bernard. If your a PSIA card holder you used to be able to get into the Instructor clinics on Fri afternoons at no cost, but that may have since changed.

Doug was my first ski week instructor back in 1989. Had him several times over the years. Still free ski with him on occasions. Good guy.
Most of the senior instructors at Taos are very good. Many have been there for decades. They all have different styles in both skiing and teaching. A lot depends on what you want to learn and chemistry.