Mogul Clinics... your thoughts?

[Kneale Brownson]

Go some place where lessons last the day.

 

[jack97]

reverse bicycle pedal concept

What’s that?

The concept is tucking your feet under your hip as you crest the bump during the flexion, just before you extend. If you were moving along with the skier at the same speed, it would look as the skiers feet is making a reverse pedal motion on a bicycle. Some skiers in this forum and the old forum (Epic) think its an effective way of keep the feet under the hip. Others have voiced that driving the hip forward is optimum. Personally, I think either is appropriate as long as it clicks and give you that feeling of speed control. Vid below, Martin explaining the technique.

 

[jack97]

I am interested in enrolling in a mogul clinic this upcoming season. Have many Pugskiers attended mogul clinics and if so what are your thoughts? I read Dan DiPiro’s book on mogul skiing, have had a great time in the bumps, and am ready to advance to the next level. I had signed up for a clinic last season at Mammoth but had to cancel due to an injury when I fell on a mogul at Brighton
.

If you have read DiPiro's book and had a great time in the bumps then you should be aware of the different approaches in mogul skiing. DiPiro approach is skiing a direct line in a man made course and in a "natural" bump field. If you want to advance to the next level with this approach, I would suggest instructors who were former mogul competitors or who coached freestyle teams.

Vid below of a coach from the east coast, moved out west and coached over at Mammoth for a while, not sure if he still does.

 

[Seldomski]

A mogul lesson that spends no time in the moguls probably won't excite most people who want to ski them better... I understand the need to work on fundamentals, but moguls are also a source of motivation and more importantly, fun. So even though theoretically it is most efficient to perfect groomer skiing first, then go to the moguls, this won't work for a number of people since they will simply lose interest before perfecting the groomer bit. You can get away with a lot of lazy things on groomers that won't work in bumps. The motivation to ski groomer flawlessly to become ready for moguls is not a typical characteristic of many recreational skiers.

So I guess my point is - I think it is worthwhile to take a student who you think is 'not ready' into easy moguls at some point during a moguls lesson to get at least a bit of mileage, especially guided mileage. Maybe it's not the most efficient path to mastery, but you do need to keep the student interested/motivated.

 

[LouD-Truckee]

But, but, but... we only have two hours for the lesson and I know I AM a good skier so can we just cut to the bumps.
Patience. We don't need no stinkin' patience. That is why we pay good money for lessons.

When it comes to steeps, bumps and trees, skiers often confuse survival with thriving.

besides..... my mom says I'm a level 7

 

[Ogg]

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One of the best ways to learn bumps is to have a mentor who can rip it up. Someone who will let you follow. That way you learn the line. I have noticed how few instructors have good bump skills, so go to a mountain that is known for great bump skiing. That's where you will find an instructor qualified to teach bumps. I learned to ski bumps at Mad River Glen behind one of the greatest recreational skiers in Vermont. That guy was amazing... it was kind of like cheating.

The concept is tucking your feet under your hip as you crest the bump during the flexion, just before you extend. If you were moving along with the skier at the same speed, it would look as the skiers feet is making a reverse pedal motion on a bicycle. Some skiers in this forum and the old forum (Epic) think its an effective way of keep the feet under the hip. Others have voiced that driving the hip forward is optimum. Personally, I think either is appropriate as long as it clicks and give you that feeling of speed control. Vid below, Martin explaining the technique.

It seems to me like they're the same thing from a different perspective. I was taught to drive the tips down the backside of the bump so your hips had to be forward which clicked for me.

 

[jack97]

It seems to me like they're the same thing from a different perspective. I was taught to drive the tips down the backside of the bump so your hips had to be forward which clicked for me.

The underlying goal is the same, keeping the feet under the hip. The difference is in its subtlety, the bicycle back pedal is foot centric, bottom up thinking. The hip drive is COM centric, moving the hip with a purpose. In the end its what ever clicks, when I weight shift, I think of my hip, not my feet. Others may lighten one foot which results in the weight shift.

 

[Mike King]

The underlying goal is the same, keeping the feet under the hip. The difference is in its subtlety, the bicycle back pedal is foot centric, bottom up thinking. The hip drive is COM centric, moving the hip with a purpose. In the end its what ever clicks, when I weight shift, I think of my hip, not my feet. Others may lighten one foot which results in the weight shift.

Well, I've got to disagree with that. The objective, I would argue, is to allow the hips to travel behind the feet in maximum absorption. There is no way that you can obtain the maximum dynamic range if you try to keep your hips over your feet as you go to absorb the bump. Just look at the still of the video you posted -- his hips are way behind his feet.

As you start down the front side of the mogul, you want to pull the feet back under the hips or drive the hips forward over the feet.

In fact, in the video he talks about how his feet travel in front of the hips as he approaches the bump, but pulls his feet back under his hips as he extends down the front side of the bump.

Mike

 

[Crank]

And you can learn this stuff on the flat?

 

[Mike King]

And you can learn this stuff on the flat?

Are you referring to me? Yes, you can learn how to flex and extend, and how to tip your lower leg at the point of maximum absorption, on the flat. In fact, it is best to learn it on the flat. You can then take it to the bumps to learn how to apply it in a more dynamic environment. As I stated earlier, it isn't possible to become a good bump skier without training in the bumps, but the basics of the technique will be learned more completely and more quickly on the flat. In fact, the techniques of good bump skiing have a lot of application in good short radius turns.

Mike

 

[jack97]

Well, I've got to disagree with that. The objective, I would argue, is to allow the hips to travel behind the feet in maximum absorption. There is no way that you can obtain the maximum dynamic range if you try to keep your hips over your feet as you go to absorb the bump. Just look at the still of the video you posted -- his hips are way behind his feet.

As you start down the front side of the mogul, you want to pull the feet back under the hips or drive the hips forward over the feet.

In fact, in the video he talks about how his feet travel in front of the hips as he approaches the bump, but pulls his feet back under his hips as he extends down the front side of the bump.

Mike

Through out TG's vid, he talks about moving hip forward. In fact, the dryland drill is a good way to get that body sensation, with enough reps it gets ingrain into muscle memory.

 

[Crank]

I'm just being snarky now. I like to get a rise out of you instructor types now and then.

Carry on.

 

[no edge]

.

When it comes to steeps, bumps and trees, skiers often confuse survival with thriving.

It's like a skier who can't get on and off a chairlift. They need to focus on first things first. You probably wouldn't take them to the top of the mountain. But if you can ski, yet bumps remain a weakness, it would seem like bumps is where the lesson should take place... generally speaking. Hell, 5 year olds can dabble in the bumps and when they do they usually get better at bumps.

It's hard to teach someone about the line if there is no line to be found. If you are in the bumps with a coach you get to talk about which way to go might be best - stand there and point out the line. Show them the back pedal... that works and it can be taught to skiers with intermediate skills. I am not suggesting that an instructor should take a student into terrain that is over there head. People don't have to be in survival mode to learn bumps, steeps and trees.

 

[Dave Marshak]

But if you can ski, yet bumps remain a weakness, it would seem like bumps is where the lesson should take place...

That depends on what "...if you can ski..." means. If you have good fore-aft balance, upper-lower body separation and good flexion-extension, you ready to learn bump tactics. Actually, most skiers with those skills don't need lessons to ski bumps. OTOH lots of people who ski only groomers think they ski well, when they don't have any of those skills. Those people need to spend time learning skills on groomers and in more variable terrain before they can succeed in bumps. If you are disappointed that your bump lesson stayed on the groom, you are probably one of those guys that needs to work on the fundamentals. At least that was my experience.

dm

 

[KingGrump]

It's like a skier who can't get on and off a chairlift. They need to focus on first things first. You probably wouldn't take them to the top of the mountain. But if you can ski, yet bumps remain a weakness, it would seem like bumps is where the lesson should take place... generally speaking. Hell, 5 year olds can dabble in the bumps and when they do they usually get better at bumps.

It's hard to teach someone about the line if there is no line to be found. If you are in the bumps with a coach you get to talk about which way to go might be best - stand there and point out the line. Show them the back pedal... that works and it can be taught to skiers with intermediate skills. I am not suggesting that an instructor should take a student into terrain that is over there head. People don't have to be in survival mode to learn bumps, steeps and trees.

"But if you can ski."
Unfortunately, most skiers are very weak in their fundamentals. They just don't realize or admit it to themselves. The bumps are not as kind and lot more truthful.

I'll often hear, "I ski fast. I am good."
My mind will auto translate that to "I really suck. But I really don't know what I don't know."
Some people are politically correct. I am just not one of those. I am more like Jack in A Few Good Men.

Most skiers suck a lot more than they think.
I won't use the word delusional. But it ain't far.
Most are better off working on their fundamentals on the groomers so they don't have to keep backtracking to learning another fundamentals.
A trip now and then into the bumps to assess their progress is desirable. Hanging out long term in the bumps before one's fundamentals are ready will only ingrain bad habits.
The bumps will initially get easier due to familiarization but it's usually a dead end road.

Disclaimer: IAASI (I ain't a ski instructor), Just another hack who had the light beaten into him.

.

 

[David Chan]

"But if you can ski."
Unfortunately, most skiers are very weak in their fundamentals. They just don't realize or admit it to themselves. The bumps are not as kind and lot more truthful.

I'll often hear, "I ski fast. I am good."
My mind will auto translate that to "I really suck. But I really don't know what I don't know."
Some people are politically correct. I am just not one of those. I am more like Jack in A Few Good Men.

Most skiers suck a lot more than they think.
I won't use the word delusional. But it ain't far.
Most are better off working on their fundamentals on the groomers so they don't have to keep backtracking to learning another fundamentals.
A trip now and then into the bumps to assess their progress is desirable. Hanging out long term in the bumps before one's fundamentals are ready will only ingrain bad habits.
The bumps will initially get easier due to familiarization but it's usually a dead end road.

Disclaimer: IAASI (I ain't a ski instructor), Just another hack who had the light beaten into him.

.

This!

 

[no edge]

So don't sell the kid or skier a bump lesson. And don't hold people back unless they really can't ski. They can do easy bumps or medium bumps. If it's not going to be a bump lesson... full disclosure, tell em - "it's groomers for you".

I have seen so many people go for a bump lesson and get any but. Bumps are not that difficult, it's the terrain, the steepness and firmness. If the student can't handle that type of situation then he should not do it. There are easy bumps and hard bumps. If all that is available is nasty, then don't send them in!

I don't believe that weak skiers should be taught in treacherous conditions. But bump lessons ought to be taught in bumps if possible.

 

[David Chan]

So don't sell the kid or skier a bump lesson. And don't hold people back unless they really can't ski. They can do easy bumps or medium bumps. If it's not going to be a bump lesson... full disclosure, tell em - "it's groomers for you".

I have seen so many people go for a bump lesson and get any but. Bumps are not that difficult, it's the terrain, the steepness and firmness. If the student can't handle that type of situation then he should not do it. There are easy bumps and hard bumps. If all that is available is nasty, then don't send them in!

I don't believe that weak skiers should be taught in treacherous conditions. But bump lessons ought to be taught in bumps if possible.

This is an important clarification. Instructors need to feel enabled to give this feedback, and their supervisors need to back these decisions.

Clients need to be more aware of the need to have strong fundamentals and honest awareness of their abilities.

It’s a two way street and too often not handled well. Very often its a parent that thinks their child is better than they really are. And many times it’s the previous instructor that sets the expectation too high, often to “please” a parent. They are not doing the child any favors, and many times setting up a child for crushing failures. Also makes for setting up the next instructor for failure as well.

 

[no edge]

This!

Athletes who overstate their abilities need to be put in a "theory" class. It's a bump class, but we are keeping them away from any bumps.

You can teach them quick turns of groomers, but it's not the same. Mini bumps offer great opportunity for timing quick turns and skidding. Kids in Vermont wedge their way down difficult trails. They are learning about bumps!

If you are limiting this discussion to ski school then maybe it's one and done. But go in the bumps to get good.

 

[no edge]

Clients need to be more aware of the need to have strong fundamentals and honest awareness of their abilities.

Of course this is true. But that is true for all aspects of skill. No skier should be lead into dangerous situations. But it seems to me instructors hold skiers back when it comes to bumps. We make a mountain out of a mogul ;-)

I see these kids start off in a wedge and weeks later they got it.