Mogul Clinics... your thoughts?

[mdf]

In the real world you need to go back and forth between real moguls and skills development on groomers. It would be a rare (perhaps non-existent) person who would have the discipline and realistic self-assessment to get everything perfect before entering the moguls. But yeah, being in too far over your head is just going to develop coping mechanisms.

 

[mikel]

@Ken in LA I have done the mogul camp at MJ and bumpbusters at Copper. Just want to point out a couple of things. There is more than one camp at MJ. If you decide to go there make sure you sign up for the camp you want. Call them and talk with them. Personally I don't like the name of Copper's "Intro to Bumps". Not knowing what you are comfortable with I will say at Copper you will be on black runs. You will start off on a blue. They will have you ski and video your technique and boot flex. You will get advise based on that. Then it will be off to Hallelujah and you will be divided into groups. Hallelujah is fairly wide and depending on the snow, line, etc, it can be reasonably easy or it can be a challenge. Instructors are great but Mr. Karp will be honest. If you are looking for more of an intro to bumps in an easier going class (by easier I mean maybe a bit less challenging terrain and more of an intro level) then MJ might be a good choice for you. Either way both have great instructors, you would get something out of either camp and you won't break the bank. I would also suggest if you are looking for instruction at either @Magi is on here from WP/MJ and @mike_m is on here from Copper. You could reach out to them.

 

[wyowindrunner]

m stuck trying to think of any other sport that is quite like bumps skiing to make a comparison.

lived at the foot of White Mountain in beautiful, scenic Rock Springs Wy.,(ha) quite a few years back. On some Sunday long runs, would run down the mountain, jumping from rock to rock, clearing sage brush in between. Thought it was pretty good simulation for bump skiing, especially the unpredictable nature requiring good balance and speed control.

But you CAN learn on the groom to make the movements that will allow you to learn to handle bumps.

Definitely. Steamboat used to have some afternoon group bump clinics. Good instructors. Attended several. Mostly conducted on groomed blues and easier blacks that had15 - 20 foot strips with two to three foot moguls on the sides. The instructor would demonstrate and watch the performance of the objective movements on the groomed, and then lead or follow into the bumps. Gave the people that had trouble or fear of spots a place to bail out and re-group.

 

[karlo]

Also, check this out.

Dryland drills and exercises are great. So important to develop the range of motions, and associated balance and strength

Since staying out of the back seat is a major focus

How to do that in moguls, that is the question.

Can you do a squat below parallel with good form?

Then extend.

Moguls have the added element of requiring a lot of flexion and extension to adapt to the terrain.

Yup

Actually I don't have the kinematics background to properly describe the motions

Tom Gellie does, and adds to the matters raised by all above,


recently released! I loved it. Now, can you resist trying it? I couldn’t. Looking in the mirror, I found myself doing it in the gym today.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Yeeesssss!!! Tips must go down the hill. But that's a lot more pounding and flexing than you'll ever see ME doing.

 

[karlo]

Yeeesssss!!! Tips must go down the hill. But that's a lot more pounding and flexing than you'll ever see ME doing.

For sure, me neither. But the motion pattern is helpful, to move the hips forward, to keep upper body up and down minimal, to accept momentary non-parallel upper body and shins.

 

[jack97]

Tom Gellie does, and adds to the matters raised by all above,


recently released! I loved it. Now, can you resist trying it? I couldn’t. Looking in the mirror, I found myself doing it in the gym today.

IMO, the vid provides a good tip of driving the hip forward. I don't recall the reverse bicycle pedal concept mentioned. I don't mean to start a thread war but to mention there's an alternative way to stay forward.

 

[SSSdave]

Anytime a discussion of mogul skiing occurs there is always a divide between comp and effective rec mogul styles thus no one size fits all. My slower rec mogul style is somewhat different than TG's video.

Maybe oddly, I've never paid much attention to flexion/extension but rather a quiet relaxed upper body stacked above my lower body. I've always skied with excellent upper to lower body separation on all terrain including groomed. My lower body and legs are pretty much turning automatically without thinking about what is going on below. Sure they are flexing and extending but am not thinking about it and my range of motion on average is less than comp skiers as my lower body turn style is more side to side since I don't care about speed in fact slower is a goal haha and form...who cares if I make it look easy and fluid. I don't have the glued together legs form of some bump skiers because that isn't my skeletal type but yeah my legs slide back and forth very close to each other. I vaguely see where my next turn is and project my upper body to that location as I extend off a bump dropping to the next. My upper body and back alignment, especially my head tends to lean over some with my arms out in front in order to keep falling forward. I've never bought into the pro mogul "keep the back upright" technique that I suspect is just a comp judging thing that assists deeper flex/ext. My hands are mostly out in front making continual small motions initiating turns but if swinging my arms wildly helps regain balance I'll do that.

 

[David Chan]

FYI Pretty sure Robin Barnes is still at Heavenly.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

When you can hold the zipper line for all 450 vertical of Little Dipper then you are a mogul skier.

 

[karlo]

Just so the thread drift doesn’t drift too far, see, one can clinic watching YouTube videos and discuss mogul skiing on Pugski. For example,

reverse bicycle pedal concept

What’s that?

Couple years ago, @Dan Egan gave is a tip. If about to encounter a large mogul, throw the arms up. Trying that last night, I notice that sends the hip forward too.

"keep the back upright" technique that I suspect is just a comp judging thing

Just guessing. It’s so that they are using glutes and hamstrings, and not QL and lower back? With what the comp guys are doing, I imagine it takes a lot of core strength and core stability.

Does that count as staying on thread?

 

[Josh Matta]

To be contrarian. If you want to learn moguls take a mogul clinic. It's really hard and maybe even impossible to learn to ski bumps on a groomer.

Everyone I have heard say this has been a pretty bad non versatile bump skiing in my experience., they also unwilling to get rid of diffeciency by spending time doing boring stuff. Video of someone who believes this or has taken a mogul clinic would be most effective way to refute this comment.

you can learn everything but tactics by grooming skiing, Tactics and why we use certain tactics can only be learned by skiing bump and by observing others ski bumps.

I think the disconnect in conversation often times with this subject is that instructors want to hammer home the message that you need a collection of skills and movement patterns that are better learned in a two dimensional surface ( and this is certainly a valid point, esp. for those that don't yet have those skills, and even for skilled skiers to practice--I continually practice and do drills on groomed snow all the time regardless of my level of proficiency-- I actually enjoy drills), and those non-instructors that have been through the mill on this for many years and know that you also need a lot of time in the hole to develop constant subtle balance adjustment skills and anticipatory awareness singed into your "muscle memory". And that experience is only gained in the practice of the medium itself, which is a chaotic, ever changing, no two bump fields or snow surface conditions alike affair. So we get these two choruses singing: "you can learn all movement patterns out of the moguls", versus "if you want to learn to ski moguls, go ski a ton of moguls." I'm not say ski instructors are obtuse to the second part of this, it's that their insistence on hammer home that first part at the exclusion of the second part leave some scratching their heads. It's also hard to teach the second part, no two dimensional drill can prepare one for the bucking bronco environment. Very subtle and constant movements to keep one balanced and still driving the skis are hard to describe and teach, and need to be experienced and developed by that experience. For example: Experienced skiers might talk, and teach drills, in terms of flexing and extending to stay balanced in the bumps ( obviously there's more to it I'm leaving out) ; but even at it's fullest discussion, it's way to simplistic and black and white.

I'm stuck trying to think of any other sport that is quite like bumps skiing to make a comparison. Perhaps wind surfing. All the dryland training and protected bay practice doesn't prepare you for big variable chaotic waves with fluctuating winds you'll find out on the open water. That dynamic environment requires full emersion in it and experience over time to master, same with bumps.

again there are ton of for and aft and flexion drills that be entirely done on groomers.

Short Radius Leaper
Hop turn
pivot slip hops
flappers
Butters
Stem Step
Sequential stem step
Dolphin turns

my biggest beef with most suppose clinics bump, big mountain, elect isnt that their information is wrong its that the approach of trying something over again again when their are glaring problem that will never be fixed by skiing the terrain they are over and again. In fact if anything its mostly teaching survival skiing while solidifying bad habits. I would say for true high end experts being able to pick a former pros mind and decipher what will work for yourself can be extremely beneficial for a ton of people who are going to take one thing like say " throw your arms up before big bump" and take it WAY to far, not realizing how extreme of circumstance would require that full body extension prior to hitting a large bump face and how fast you d have to be going.

The reality is if I started a clinic that promised to make the average person better at bump skiing, it would spend as much time on flat boring groomed snow until everyone in it had basic fundamental skills. I know that sounds boring but surprisingly its not when I get large advance expert level groups in my day job. @KevinF said it well, if you are unable to make a 100+ short radius turns on a blue groomer with out gaining or losing speed there is a not a chance even an easy bump run will be doable. Those turns should be done centered and with no rotary movement from the pelvis up.

Noone would ever sign up for such a clinic even though in the end it would actually lead to better skiing, than just beating your head off a wall as you learn to survive terrain, instead of thriving on it.

once people have fundemental skills learning tactics and why to choose them is he next step. If you are a truly proficient skier learning any new tactics should be stupid easy. If you have even been introduced a new tactic and are unable to do it fairly quickly......my educated guess is its lack of fundemental skill.

lastly any clinic of any sort that preaches ONE tactics for every bump run you come across, is a BS clinic and should be avoid. bump are natural, they are never the same, one single tactic will never be sufficient for learning to ski bumps unless you want to become the person that just complains about oddly shaped bumps when the tactic you have been taught is not working.

 

[Crank]

Everyone I have heard say this has been a pretty bad non versatile bump skiing in my experience., they also unwilling to get rid of diffeciency by spending time doing boring stuff. Video of someone who believes this or has taken a mogul clinic would be most effective way to refute this comment.

you can learn everything but tactics by grooming skiing, Tactics and why we use certain tactics can only be learned by skiing bump and by observing others ski bumps.

So you are sayiin that I am a "pretty bad, non versatile" bump skier.

I thought you attacked ideas and not people. lol

 

[Josh Matta]

you presented an idea the idea being(its impossible to learn to ski bumps on a groomer), and I attacked it, hell I would go so far to say I basically learned to ski bumps on a groomer(for 3 years the first place I skied had zero bumps). you could take it as you are what you said or you could post a video of yourself or someone else that believes what you do to prove me wrong.

The reality is I really do nt care how you or anyone skis, or where they go to get better. I only posted to make sure everyone knows that trying to survive terrain using one liner tips which is what most of these clinics are are pretty bad way to get better at skiing.

 

[martyg]

Everyone I have heard say this has been a pretty bad non versatile bump skiing in my experience., they also unwilling to get rid of diffeciency by spending time doing boring stuff. Video of someone who believes this or has taken a mogul clinic would be most effective way to refute this comment.

you can learn everything but tactics by grooming skiing, Tactics and why we use certain tactics can only be learned by skiing bump and by observing others ski bumps.



again there are ton of for and aft and flexion drills that be entirely done on groomers.

Short Radius Leaper
Hop turn
pivot slip hops
flappers
Butters
Stem Step
Sequential stem step
Dolphin turns

my biggest beef with most suppose clinics bump, big mountain, elect isnt that their information is wrong its that the approach of trying something over again again when their are glaring problem that will never be fixed by skiing the terrain they are over and again. In fact if anything its mostly teaching survival skiing while solidifying bad habits. I would say for true high end experts being able to pick a former pros mind and decipher what will work for yourself can be extremely beneficial for a ton of people who are going to take one thing like say " throw your arms up before big bump" and take it WAY to far, not realizing how extreme of circumstance would require that full body extension prior to hitting a large bump face and how fast you d have to be going.

The reality is if I started a clinic that promised to make the average person better at bump skiing, it would spend as much time on flat boring groomed snow until everyone in it had basic fundamental skills. I know that sounds boring but surprisingly its not when I get large advance expert level groups in my day job. @KevinF said it well, if you are unable to make a 100+ short radius turns on a blue groomer with out gaining or losing speed there is a not a chance even an easy bump run will be doable. Those turns should be done centered and with no rotary movement from the pelvis up.

Noone would ever sign up for such a clinic even though in the end it would actually lead to better skiing, than just beating your head off a wall as you learn to survive terrain, instead of thriving on it.

once people have fundemental skills learning tactics and why to choose them is he next step. If you are a truly proficient skier learning any new tactics should be stupid easy. If you have even been introduced a new tactic and are unable to do it fairly quickly......my educated guess is its lack of fundemental skill.

lastly any clinic of any sort that preaches ONE tactics for every bump run you come across, is a BS clinic and should be avoid. bump are natural, they are never the same, one single tactic will never be sufficient for learning to ski bumps unless you want to become the person that just complains about oddly shaped bumps when the tactic you have been taught is not working.

I'm with you.

Often when I have advanced skiers we go to flat, flat terrain. They get indignant. We do edge drills at 3mph - some of the same drills that USST do at 3mph - OK - maybe they do them at 5mph. They fall over. Their attitude goes away and learning begins.

Same with paddling. I have a private clinic this afternoon with someone who wants to nail a few Class V moves. We'll be tuning basics on flatwater with video analysis. Then moving o Class II, where they will be trying that same move, in easy conditions, with me video taping and counting strokes. If they can't make the move in easy water with two strokes they need to go back to fundamentals.

 

[no edge]

.

Everyone I have heard say this has been a pretty bad non versatile bump skiing in my experience., they also unwilling to get rid of diffeciency by spending time doing boring stuff. Video of someone who believes this or has taken a mogul clinic would be most effective way to refute this comment.

you can learn everything but tactics by grooming skiing, Tactics and why we use certain tactics can only be learned by skiing bump and by observing others ski bumps.

If a guy can't ski, then he probably won't ski well in the bumps. The basics are a given. But spending time on groomers is not where it's at when it comes to learning to ski bumps. How would you like to take a bump lesson and find yourself on groomers.

Groomers to me would be flat, no terrain and no bumps. The least you could do is to find easy to ski, un-groomed trails. Something with mild bumps and low angle. Learn to use the terrain and learn to shorten the radius of the turn in gentle bumps.

I see so many pics of bump fields and I would suggest that easy bumps are best for early progression. If it's too steep and too snug someone new will not be able to focus on skill.

One of the best ways to learn bumps is to have a mentor who can rip it up. Someone who will let you follow. That way you learn the line. I have noticed how few instructors have good bump skills, so go to a mountain that is known for great bump skiing. That's where you will find an instructor qualified to teach bumps. I learned to ski bumps at Mad River Glen behind one of the greatest recreational skiers in Vermont. That guy was amazing... it was kind of like cheating.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....The reality is if I started a clinic that promised to make the average person better at bump skiing, it would spend as much time on flat boring groomed snow until everyone in it had basic fundamental skills. ....if you are unable to make a 100+ short radius turns on a blue groomer with out gaining or losing speed there is a not a chance even an easy bump run will be doable. Those turns should be done centered and with no rotary movement from the pelvis up.

Noone would ever sign up for such a clinic even though in the end it would actually lead to better skiing, than just beating your head off a wall as you learn to survive terrain, instead of thriving on it.....

QFT.
For a short duration mogul clinic, the above applies to most adults wanting to learn to ski bumps who might be looking to register for a clinic.
It needs some modification to apply to kids wanting to become competitive bump skiers (longer lasting bump camps).

 

[Crank]

Bumps present challenges that groomers do not. Yes you need fundamentals but you don't have lumps rushing up at you at irregular intervals doing their level best to throw you into the back seat on groomers. So how does one learn to deal with that without dealing with that?

 

[Josh Matta]

Bumps present challenges that groomers do not. Yes you need fundamentals but you don't have lumps rushing up at you at irregular intervals doing their level best to throw you into the back seat on groomers. So how does one learn to deal with that without dealing with that?

flappers, butters, ollies, hop turns, step turns, and dolphins turn. Dolphin turns are literally skiing bumps with no bumps.


and I am not saying you have to know any of the above to try bumps, what I am saying is it would be entirely possible if someone patient enough, they could learn to deal with 3d terrain with out ever skiing 3d terrrain.

 

[KingGrump]

and I am not saying you have to know any of the above to try bumps, what I am saying is it would be entirely possible if someone patient enough, they could learn to deal with 3d terrain with out ever skiing 3d terrrain.

But, but, but... we only have two hours for the lesson and I know I AM a good skier so can we just cut to the bumps.
Patience. We don't need no stinkin' patience. That is why we pay good money for lessons.

When it comes to steeps, bumps and trees, skiers often confuse survival with thriving.