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Mikaela Shiffrin

Tom Holtmann

TomH
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Posts
196
Wealth can be a negative as well as a positive in sports. Just as athletes of poor means have to overcome specific adversity so do athletes of affluent means. It is just that the adversities they have to overcome are different. But in most sports, skiing included, you see rich and poor kids that become champions. There isn't a secret sauce. I just bridle a bit at the claim that the new generation of ski racers are richer, more spoiled and less hard working than past generations or other sports. Seems unlikely in a professional sport. Primoz as I vaguely remember your background is in X-Country skiing. Is that correct. I do think one has to be careful comparing work loads in endurance base sports relative to power based sports. If one compared the regimes of a world class sprinter versus a world class marathoner it would be easy to fall into the trap of thinking sprinters don't work as hard. But the physical stress put on an athlete of full out sprinting and lifting the near max squats and deadlifts required to be a world class sprinter are physiologically extremely taxing. It is impossible to put in the hours of this type of training that an endurance athlete is engaging in. I think skiing is more similar to sprinting.
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
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Yes my competition sport was xc skiing, but next to athlete I have been few other things too in my career in sport (mostly in xc but quite a bit also in alpine), so I'm more then aware of this. I don't consider hard work only running for 5 hours or doing endless 15min intervals. I completely agree that sprinters work super hard, even if for someone without much knowledge about training and physiology, it would feel like resting, laying around and having fun. But thing is, I have seen how some top (today's or in past) skiers train, and how majority trains, and that's base for this what I wrote. I completely agree alpine skiing is way more like sprinting (ski jumping for example is even more extreme), then xc skiing (or marathon running), so I know you can't compare these training, but I didn't really want to, as you can't compare efforts between different sport types. But doing 2 or 3, 30-40sec SL runs, and then saying "I have enough for today" is not really "hard training", especially when you come to a bit steeper and a bit icier track, and after 40sec you simply ski out since "legs didn't hold anymore and was unable to finish the race" (it happened already, and to someone who was in top 3 on WC already and at that time ranked in top 20).
 

Ivan

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479
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I am really curious how top skiers train these days. I know it's a sample of one, but Hermann Maier was famous for training 8-10 hours a day, up to 60 hours a week, mostly on a stationary bike (see the links below). What worked for him does not necessarily work for others, but still...
 

Tom Holtmann

TomH
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Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Posts
196
Yes my competition sport was xc skiing, but next to athlete I have been few other things too in my career in sport (mostly in xc but quite a bit also in alpine), so I'm more then aware of this. I don't consider hard work only running for 5 hours or doing endless 15min intervals. I completely agree that sprinters work super hard, even if for someone without much knowledge about training and physiology, it would feel like resting, laying around and having fun. But thing is, I have seen how some top (today's or in past) skiers train, and how majority trains, and that's base for this what I wrote. I completely agree alpine skiing is way more like sprinting (ski jumping for example is even more extreme), then xc skiing (or marathon running), so I know you can't compare these training, but I didn't really want to, as you can't compare efforts between different sport types. But doing 2 or 3, 30-40sec SL runs, and then saying "I have enough for today" is not really "hard training", especially when you come to a bit steeper and a bit icier track, and after 40sec you simply ski out since "legs didn't hold anymore and was unable to finish the race" (it happened already, and to someone who was in top 3 on WC already and at that time ranked in top 20).
You have the inside knowledge so I will have to believe you. Sad state of affairs if true. Doesn't seem to be a recipe for sustainable success at the World Cup level where to the outsider like myself the athletes generally seem to be professional in their attitudes and preparation.
 
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markojp

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Wealth can be a negative as well as a positive in sports. Just as athletes of poor means have to overcome specific adversity so do athletes of affluent means. It is just that the adversities they have to overcome are different. But in most sports, skiing included, you see rich and poor kids that become champions. There isn't a secret sauce. I just bridle a bit at the claim that the new generation of ski racers are richer, more spoiled and less hard working than past generations or other sports. Seems unlikely in a professional sport. Primoz as I vaguely remember your background is in X-Country skiing. Is that correct. I do think one has to be careful comparing work loads in endurance base sports relative to power based sports. If one compared the regimes of a world class sprinter versus a world class marathoner it would be easy to fall into the trap of thinking sprinters don't work as hard. But the physical stress put on an athlete of full out sprinting and lifting the near max squats and deadlifts required to be a world class sprinter are physiologically extremely taxing. It is impossible to put in the hours of this type of training that an endurance athlete is engaging in. I think skiing is more similar to sprinting.

There are NO poor kids in ski racing.
 

Burton

Getting on the lift
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Mar 10, 2017
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104
Now I know why it says I have 100 more free articles when I click on SkiRacing.com. Cool beans.
 

James

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Mikaela may be a below average athlete, but she’s a bit of a freak in ability to stick to refining movements through drills and actually enjoy it. Enjoying it will keep you at it and increase passion instead if create boredom. Don’t know much about Stenmark, but he seems in that category too.

Most racers inherently think that you should go fast all the time. Shiffrin, and I think Stenmark, seem to relish getting very, very precise at slow speeds first.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
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I’m still heavily involved in two college programs, both in the East, both NCAA, both private schools. Both have enormous endowments. There is an arms race on with these schools and other peer schools with respect to need based financial aid. Basically if your family gross income is less than $150K, you are not paying a dime. Full cost is about $72K a year at each.

Talking with both Alpine coaches, they have not had a single recruit in the last three years who has qualified or even applied for financial aid. The Nordic side is different.

Having sent two now 30-somethings through the ski academy and NCAA racing years {with many PG years in between} and having stayed close to it, if you buy into that programming, it is year round and frightfully expensive. And yes, there is scholarship money available for those with need. But not enough to really keep up.

I recall a friend making the comment to me that he had noticed that our ski academy tuition and room and board was very much in line with the well known prep school where his kids were in school. Yep. True. Of course he assumed that also included almost all of their ski expenses. Nope. Not true. Not close. I left it that the ski piece was quite a lot. No details. I did not want to embarrass myself by explaining that for the very average ski racers, the ski costs equalled the cost of school. For some kids, it was an additional two times the cost of school....or more.

The faster they were, the older they were, the more it all added up. Start racing NorAms all over the country. Race speed. Trips to RACE in Europe. Not training blocks...races. I have a family friend who’s son is about to race in 10 races over 14 days in Europe. Costly. Our kids were doing 50+ race starts a year.

It’s a problem. It is very much a “rich white kid’s sport.” With rare exception. There are some organizations trying very hard to work around that. It’s very hard. Culturally it’s a struggle. Very understandable. The whole system, if you will, is geared toward indentifying and developing the best athletes. And there are twenty times as many along for the ride, far behind the best. Many of them have parents who think it’s pretty neat.

To enjoy ski racing you do not need to follow that route. But many are not aware of that.

Take a look at those who govern the USSA/USST, the board. Exclude the former athletes. Then look at the occupations and just guess at the incomes. They are all in the PE, investment banking, VC, world. Hedge Fund guys. Or founders/owners of BIG concerns. Some are simply private investors....with the real money. Or they Chair family foundations. Regular folks? Nope. Not many. Some years not one.

Yeah the sport does not really lend itself to what many like to dream of in terms of grass roots. And I think it’s a problem. I think it’s sad. And it’s not unique to the USA.

Now I do know a number of kids who cobbled together a ski academy experience with their parents and a lot of help. Example A: Bode. It can be done. And most worked hard in the clasrooom, and were able to be admitted to very good colleges based on the ski/grades combination. Most quit skiing after a season in college as there was so much to see, do and learn. No drive to ski. And this was 15-20 years ago. It has only become more expensive.

Bode skipped getting his diploma and went right to the USST. Worked for him.

My kids were pretty darn “OK.” When they first skied in the summer, they were 13, and it was two weeks at Mt. Hood. I now know 8 year olds who are on snow 8 plus weeks a summer, in Europe, NZ, Hood....and then off for another two “training blocks”, of more, in the fall. Nuts. Sometimes their parents are with them.

My kids very seriously say that IF they have their own children, they are going to struggle to have them able to ski race....even though they are in the race business and probably top 5% of the pay range. That is a fairly new development.

“Hell, I can’t even afford a house. How are we going to afford that?” They’ll be able to, bit the fact that they are so worked up about it is troubling. Skiing, sure. Easy, alpine ski racing at the top levels of the sport, like they coach? That causes the angst. And burns money.

RICH. White. Kids. Sport. Not bad kids. Kids willing to work, some quite a bit. Some not. Some spoiled. Most not.

The number of families spending hundreds of thousands a dollars a year to make this happen is astounding. They love to ski, most wish they “could have raced”, they are driven and have very substantial means....and will do anything for their kids. They have very little restraint. Can’t help themselves. Some are over the top. Really tough. Seems like more each year.

I was at a ski race today. The number of parents there who, I KNOW, flew in on their private jets was pretty astounding to me. It’s so different than it was not that long ago. Those at the top of the food chain get drawn to the sport, and it happens.

How about buying a $14Mil home in Aspen, having the kids, oldest is 10, spend every other week there. Obviously fly in on the private plane. Hire a private full time coach for the kids. Have a couple caretaking the home full time. It sounds crazy. It takes place in every high end ski town, though they soon realize that the kids need to be there all winter long.

People do find a way around it. Takes the right town, public schools, and friend/support group.

Always gives me concern for the sport.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
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Mikaela may be a below average athlete, but she’s a bit of a freak in ability to stick to refining movements through drills and actually enjoy it. Enjoying it will keep you at it and increase passion instead if create boredom. Don’t know much about Stenmark, but he seems in that category too.

Most racers inherently think that you should go fast all the time. Shiffrin, and I think Stenmark, seem to relish getting very, very precise at slow speeds first.

That’s a VERY good observation, @James.
It is all about her practiced, drilled and refined movements. Absolutely.

That is how she was taught to ski, and how she learned as a tiny toddler, spending hours with her mother...basically doing drills. To this day, she finds doing drills and practicing movements to be enjoyable and relaxing.

My understanding is that she pretty rarely free skis. He fun for her seems to be to refine the precision. I have seen her, often with a coach and her mother, sometimes with just her mother, spending hours doing this at Gold Peak {Vail} and at Highlands in Aspen. Often, but not always on trails that are roped off for her dedicated use.

I’ve seen them riding a lift, engaged in animated conversation, even laughing....so my assumption has always been that it’s fun. It’s obviously “work” and a directed activity with a specific purpose.

A few years ago in Vail, she had agreed to ski for a couple of hours with some of the youngest racers in SSCV. As explained to me, it snowed about 8” the night before. The little kids live for fresh snow and were psyched to shred it. When they arrived they were told to go ski it with their coaches. And they came back about for lunch. After lunch, they skied with Mikaela, on a perfectly groomed, wide trail at Golden Peak, where she and Eileen showed them her favorite drills, etc. kids probably were in awe.

The funny thing is that simdbof those kids had been through the same thing years before with LV. She also blew off a powder day, to wait for the groomed. My hunch is no drills.

When I first asked about her touch, having seen her at 13-14, one of her coaches laughed she set me straight. Knows how to move, when to move, where to move to get the desired result.

Seems to have worked...pretty well.
 

Dakine

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That’s a VERY good observation, @James.
It is all about her practiced, drilled and refined movements. Absolutely.

That is how she was taught to ski, and how she learned as a tiny toddler, spending hours with her mother...basically doing drills. To this day, she finds doing drills and practicing movements to be enjoyable and relaxing.

My understanding is that she pretty rarely free skis. He fun for her seems to be to refine the precision. I have seen her, often with a coach and her mother, sometimes with just her mother, spending hours doing this at Gold Peak {Vail} and at Highlands in Aspen. Often, but not always on trails that are roped off for her dedicated use.

I’ve seen them riding a lift, engaged in animated conversation, even laughing....so my assumption has always been that it’s fun. It’s obviously “work” and a directed activity with a specific purpose.

A few years ago in Vail, she had agreed to ski for a couple of hours with some of the youngest racers in SSCV. As explained to me, it snowed about 8” the night before. The little kids live for fresh snow and were psyched to shred it. When they arrived they were told to go ski it with their coaches. And they came back about for lunch. After lunch, they skied with Mikaela, on a perfectly groomed, wide trail at Golden Peak, where she and Eileen showed them her favorite drills, etc. kids probably were in awe.

The funny thing is that simdbof those kids had been through the same thing years before with LV. She also blew off a powder day, to wait for the groomed. My hunch is no drills.

When I first asked about her touch, having seen her at 13-14, one of her coaches laughed she set me straight. Knows how to move, when to move, where to move to get the desired result.

Seems to have worked...pretty well.

Damn, if that doesn't sound like the Ski Coach We Dare Not mention.......
 

Swede

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And it’s expensive before kids go to an academy as well, U8-U10-U12 fairly ”cheap”, by U14 it starts to add up with much more travel unless you happen to live in proper ski resort with a glacier. U16 can be done @€10k a season per kid Here in Sweden), but much more expensive if you go to New Zeeland in summer, plus a couple of glaciers in fall. There are probably exceptions, but inme you pretty much have to go with the program (pick up the bill) to be competitive enough to get into any good programs (here it’s partly funded from national sports assoc, but not that many spots).
 
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Snowflake2420

I70 is Life
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Dec 25, 2016
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464
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My dream (and I know this is my dream, no one else's) is I'd like to see Miki freeski after she retires. Just once.

And if you're following another Pugski thread on what makes an expert skier, do you think Miki would ski moguls better than Picabo? :roflmao:

I'm a Miki superfan and I mean well :).
 

Muleski

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My dream (and I know this is my dream, no one else's) is I'd like to see Miki freeski after she retires. Just once.

And if you're following another Pugski thread on what makes an expert skier, do you think Miki would ski moguls better than Picabo? :roflmao:

I'm a Miki superfan and I mean well :).

The question might be who would be a better freeskier and mogul skier, Julia Mancuso with two good hips, or Mikeala.

They were raised very differently, including their time on snow, and what that snow consisted of. Julia, considered by most to be the best female athlete ever on the USST. Raised at Squaw. Loves steeps, deep powder, etc.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I hate it when that happens!
if she wasn’t such a klutz, this type of thing would not happen ;)
 

Tom Holtmann

TomH
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Sep 15, 2017
Posts
196
I’m still heavily involved in two college programs, both in the East, both NCAA, both private schools. Both have enormous endowments. There is an arms race on with these schools and other peer schools with respect to need based financial aid. Basically if your family gross income is less than $150K, you are not paying a dime. Full cost is about $72K a year at each.

Talking with both Alpine coaches, they have not had a single recruit in the last three years who has qualified or even applied for financial aid. The Nordic side is different.

Having sent two now 30-somethings through the ski academy and NCAA racing years {with many PG years in between} and having stayed close to it, if you buy into that programming, it is year round and frightfully expensive. And yes, there is scholarship money available for those with need. But not enough to really keep up.

I recall a friend making the comment to me that he had noticed that our ski academy tuition and room and board was very much in line with the well known prep school where his kids were in school. Yep. True. Of course he assumed that also included almost all of their ski expenses. Nope. Not true. Not close. I left it that the ski piece was quite a lot. No details. I did not want to embarrass myself by explaining that for the very average ski racers, the ski costs equalled the cost of school. For some kids, it was an additional two times the cost of school....or more.

The faster they were, the older they were, the more it all added up. Start racing NorAms all over the country. Race speed. Trips to RACE in Europe. Not training blocks...races. I have a family friend who’s son is about to race in 10 races over 14 days in Europe. Costly. Our kids were doing 50+ race starts a year.

It’s a problem. It is very much a “rich white kid’s sport.” With rare exception. There are some organizations trying very hard to work around that. It’s very hard. Culturally it’s a struggle. Very understandable. The whole system, if you will, is geared toward indentifying and developing the best athletes. And there are twenty times as many along for the ride, far behind the best. Many of them have parents who think it’s pretty neat.

To enjoy ski racing you do not need to follow that route. But many are not aware of that.

Take a look at those who govern the USSA/USST, the board. Exclude the former athletes. Then look at the occupations and just guess at the incomes. They are all in the PE, investment banking, VC, world. Hedge Fund guys. Or founders/owners of BIG concerns. Some are simply private investors....with the real money. Or they Chair family foundations. Regular folks? Nope. Not many. Some years not one.

Yeah the sport does not really lend itself to what many like to dream of in terms of grass roots. And I think it’s a problem. I think it’s sad. And it’s not unique to the USA.

Now I do know a number of kids who cobbled together a ski academy experience with their parents and a lot of help. Example A: Bode. It can be done. And most worked hard in the clasrooom, and were able to be admitted to very good colleges based on the ski/grades combination. Most quit skiing after a season in college as there was so much to see, do and learn. No drive to ski. And this was 15-20 years ago. It has only become more expensive.

Bode skipped getting his diploma and went right to the USST. Worked for him.

My kids were pretty darn “OK.” When they first skied in the summer, they were 13, and it was two weeks at Mt. Hood. I now know 8 year olds who are on snow 8 plus weeks a summer, in Europe, NZ, Hood....and then off for another two “training blocks”, of more, in the fall. Nuts. Sometimes their parents are with them.

My kids very seriously say that IF they have their own children, they are going to struggle to have them able to ski race....even though they are in the race business and probably top 5% of the pay range. That is a fairly new development.

“Hell, I can’t even afford a house. How are we going to afford that?” They’ll be able to, bit the fact that they are so worked up about it is troubling. Skiing, sure. Easy, alpine ski racing at the top levels of the sport, like they coach? That causes the angst. And burns money.

RICH. White. Kids. Sport. Not bad kids. Kids willing to work, some quite a bit. Some not. Some spoiled. Most not.

The number of families spending hundreds of thousands a dollars a year to make this happen is astounding. They love to ski, most wish they “could have raced”, they are driven and have very substantial means....and will do anything for their kids. They have very little restraint. Can’t help themselves. Some are over the top. Really tough. Seems like more each year.

I was at a ski race today. The number of parents there who, I KNOW, flew in on their private jets was pretty astounding to me. It’s so different than it was not that long ago. Those at the top of the food chain get drawn to the sport, and it happens.

How about buying a $14Mil home in Aspen, having the kids, oldest is 10, spend every other week there. Obviously fly in on the private plane. Hire a private full time coach for the kids. Have a couple caretaking the home full time. It sounds crazy. It takes place in every high end ski town, though they soon realize that the kids need to be there all winter long.

People do find a way around it. Takes the right town, public schools, and friend/support group.

Always gives me concern for the sport.
Is this true in the sport as a whole. I always thought lots of euro racers were middle class which was why I found primos statement surprising.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
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North of Boston
Is this true in the sport as a whole. I always thought lots of euro racers were middle class which was why I found primos statement surprising.

“It depends”.........I’ll let @Primoz weigh in. In Canada, the majority of kids that I know who have raced in the national team system, or close and the NCAA are from fairly welll to do, if not wealthy families.

In Europe, my family knows a number of top Norwegian skiers. The same. I used to see Leif Haugen driving between DU and Loveland in his brand new navy blue Porsche Carerra Turbo with the license plate “Viking.” The ones we know are well to do. Or more.

The Euro Alpine nations tend to put a lot of money into not just the national federations but their ski academies. Yet, there are also students there who’s families pay a lot of money. Depends on the kid and family. One of my kids has coached with a Austrian Academy, and one in Italy.

It’s not the same as what we see in the USA, for a host of reasons, but it’s not like it was 30 years ago, either....to my understanding.

Guess for the family who needs the financial support, it depends on the country and I’m sure on how young they identify the next Hirscher.
 

James

Out There
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Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455

I hate it when that happens!
if she wasn’t such a klutz, this type of thing would not happen ;)
Good thing that happened at transition and not in the turn. That inner ski crossing the outer can easily lead to boot top spiral fracture of the tibia.

Damn, if that doesn't sound like the Ski Coach We Dare Not mention.......
Yeah, not so much. Slower than dirt.
I guess Mikaela doesn’t conform to the proper model. Based on comments made of her free skiing at Abasin by the disciples, one a coach for Voldemort.
 

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