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Micro, Indy, Boutique or Mainstream? What is preferred source of skis?

GregK

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So is anyone saying indy brands don't make good product?

There was the assumption in the beginning of the thread that going with an unfamiliar Indy brand was a bigger leap of faith than the “safer bet for consistent quality” mainstream skis.

I was pointing there can be inconsistencies in build or tune quality on any brand of ski but also that there are many smaller or Indy ski manufacturers that might have been making fantastic skis for years that some might not have discovered yet. Companies like Liberty might not have been on a lot of PugSki members minds a few years ago until the the VMT and Evolv lines came out and now they are a very popular recommendation with many happy owners on here.
 

markojp

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Um.... as the victim of a particularly bad tune at a demo day last year, I disagree. Rustler 9 was so inconsistent and burred that I caught my tails and fell twice just making my way back to the tent. Rep bragged about the "sharp" tune they'd put on them.

And yet both myself and one of the Blizzard hill reps said the Brahma skied great, but the tune was weird... they didn't go sideways at all. The rep pulled that pair aside. I apologize in advance for being a bit defensive, but putting together a demo fleet, hauling it around, setting up, breaking down, and maintaining dozens of pairs of skis is hard work, and many of these guys are semi-permanently on the road from nat'l sales meeting times through the end of the spring consumer demo season. In my experience, they are trying, and yes, sometimes things go south. I don't take it personally. They enjoy it even less than we do and know it can screw orders and reviews. This goes for manufacturer's of all sizes.
 

bbbradley

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I am a former racer and still skew to that kind of a ski, there are a host of small brands that make great skis I'm sure (it's hard to stay in business with a lousy product), but from what I've seen they don't sell the style of ski I want at the price I want. The skis I currently have in the basement are Head, Volkl, Rossignol, and Atomic.

I'll buy what makes sense to me, I'm willing to take a chance on a smaller brand ski if I am confident it will meet my needs. One of the small ski makers up here in Boston has a program where you can pay to go into their shop and custom build your own skis. Cool idea, but I don't want a hack like me making my skis, I want a seasoned ski builder. :D I brew beer, and the 1st batch I made many years back was...drinkable. I am much better now, but there is a learning curve for most things.
 

François Pugh

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I actually agree that for most skiers any “useable” ski will be roughly as good as any other. Useable skis for the vast majority can’t be too stiff, too heavy, too long or too wide. I also think they benefit from a bit of rocker.

Forums collect the lunatic fringe though and I’m pretty sure most of the people who post here regularly have a pretty good idea of what attributes they tend to like in skis. Taking myself as an example, what I want in a ski has changed a lot in the last 5 years. Despite that, I don’t think I could usefully review a ski other than to tell you whether it has attributes I like and whether I’d like it more if it did something I like better.
Horses for courses. What I want in a ski depends on what I want to do with that ski. For speed thrills I want stiffer, heavier, longer, for powder or deep snow, I want wider, for hardpack skinnier, for arc-2-arc carving I want instant grip and lots of it, for smearing turns and sideways skiing, easier release and less tip and tail engagement.

Tuning is a tough one, a carvaholic loves a ski that won't go sideways for carving turns, a person looking to smear turns and easily turn a locked in turn into a drift to alter steering angle quickly and easily not so much. Nevertheless, a proper tune, at least as far as base flatness, base finish and edge and base bevel accuracy should be job #1. At least some ski manufactures used to know this point. I recall the old Kastle used to make a big deal of it; my SGs bragged about it and came with a protective foil on the base, and truthfully the tune was superb.

As to buying with confidence, it comes down to research, finding information and judging the validity of that information. It's just easier to research a bigger brand.
 

Wasatchman

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Not an unfair advantage if they are going to mandate in their retailer contracts that every pair gets an equivalent tune before ending up in a customer's hands. Otherwise, erm, it is fundamentally lying to customers. Getting a product reviewed which is not like they can expect to buy - like erm tuning up chips in an auto for getting through tests - wonder where we've seen that before?
It's not that bad of a practice. The underlying ski is still the same.
 

markojp

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It's not that bad of a practice. The underlying ski is still the same.

Some have a special way of seeing the pile of poo and not the pony.
 

Heeler

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1604168956578.png
 

mishka

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I am a former racer and still skew to that kind of a ski, there are a host of small brands that make great skis I'm sure (it's hard to stay in business with a lousy product), but from what I've seen they don't sell the style of ski I want at the price I want. The skis I currently have in the basement are Head, Völkl, Rossignol, and Atomic.

I'll buy what makes sense to me, I'm willing to take a chance on a smaller brand ski if I am confident it will meet my needs. One of the small ski makers up here in Boston has a program where you can pay to go into their shop and custom build your own skis. Cool idea, but I don't want a hack like me making my skis, I want a seasoned ski builder. :D I brew beer, and the 1st batch I made many years back was...drinkable. I am much better now, but there is a learning curve for most things.

It's hard to stay in business even when making high-quality product. "If you make it they will come" approach doesn't really work.

Going in somebody else shop to build the skis is not difficult/complicated/compromising ski quality. It's not like person going to build entire shop from scratch. Most of the people/friends I build skis was happy in participating during layup. I think it's special experience definitely not for everyone.

On subject of this thread :
IMO if company doesn't matter big of small does not make their own product they are not manufacturer they are reseller and should be considered as such

Small brands always has and always will have uphill bottle to win the customer.

Even smaller, lesser-known/unknown brands or individuals, like myself, who build skis even in greater disadvantage. Quality of the skis build have absolutely nothing to do with it
 

Wasatchman

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It's hard to stay in business even when making high-quality product. "If you make it they will come" approach doesn't really work.

Going in somebody else shop to build the skis is not difficult/complicated/compromising ski quality. It's not like person going to build entire shop from scratch. Most of the people/friends I build skis was happy in participating during layup. I think it's special experience definitely not for everyone.

On subject of this thread :
IMO if company doesn't matter big of small does not make their own product they are not manufacturer they are reseller and should be considered as such

Small brands always has and always will have uphill bottle to win the customer.

Even smaller, lesser-known/unknown brands or individuals, like myself, who build skis even in greater disadvantage. Quality of the skis build have absolutely nothing to do with it
How many pairs do you sell a year?
 

fatbob

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It's not that bad of a practice. The underlying ski is still the same.
Yep - so is the auto with the defeat device code or the bhp mapped up or whatever but it's not the one the customer gets....
 

bbbradley

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It's hard to stay in business even when making high-quality product. "If you make it they will come" approach doesn't really work.
True! That's why I'm in Marketing. :)

Going in somebody else shop to build the skis is not difficult/complicated/compromising ski quality. It's not like person going to build entire shop from scratch. Most of the people/friends I build skis was happy in participating during layup. I think it's special experience definitely not for everyone.

From their site:
"In class, you will work along side us—building your bases and cores, printing your top sheets, laying up the skis, and finally sanding and finishing the side walls and peeling the protective coating to reveal your skis!"

Yes, they will be alongside you, but I suspect a 1st timer won't do it right. :) I'd love to be in on the process if 1) they had a ski I wanted 2) they let me practice a few times before I build my skis. I have a basic idea of ski construction, but not much beyond that.
 

mishka

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True! That's why I'm in Marketing. :)
looks like I have a challenge for you

Yes, they will be alongside you, but I suspect a 1st timer won't do it right. :) I'd love to be in on the process if 1) they had a ski I wanted 2) they let me practice a few times before I build my skis.

looks like you have a challenge for me


I have a basic idea of ski construction, but not much beyond that.
that's can be easily change/improve. Make sure you bring beer you are making
 

Eric Edelstein

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Lots of great discussion here (along with some tangents)... but I think it comes down to a couple of fundamentals...
  1. Any company, big or small, can create an excellent ski for your personal taste.
  2. Any company, big or small, can create a really lousy ski for your personal taste.
  3. Smaller ski builders are offering multi-year warranties against defective builds (the biggest ski companies can't seem to bring themselves to do that yet...I could be wrong...)
  4. Any company, big or small, can deliver a perfectly great ski in a lousy state of tune and create a bad experience for the demo tester or paying customer....

    (LISTEN UP SKI MAKERS: Concentrate on a great truing and tuning job on your skis before they get to the customer....spend the money on machines or outsourcing the effort...skiers deserve it... I expect a new car to be properly aligned when it comes off the showroom....I expect skis to be similarly ready for use out-of-the-box). I can't count the number of times I talk to ski reps from the big brands who get a shipment of fresh skis from the factories 2 days before on-snow industry demos and they drop dozens of skis off at a shop local to the demo site to be mounted and tuned en-masse before the retailers get to jump on them and the rush jobs turn out to be less-than-stellar... No wonder so many demo skis feel "funny" at the early demo events... More and more companies are spending the time to true and tune the skis properly from the factory, but nothing beats a good technician's eye and hand to get the best behaviors from a ski...but there is no excuse for a poorly-tuned ski coming out of the box these days.

  5. Given the ability to get a great ski with characteristics I like from a large company or a small company, I tend to lean toward paying my money to a smaller company since I can imagine them paying their staff and bills with the money I gave them (to be fair, the big guys also pay their staff and bills with the money I give them...but I like the romantic notion of the small business owner cashing-out at the end of the day on Friday and making payroll that week). I tend to want to buy my beer from local breweries making styles I like for the same reason....but I still love a proper Guinness from the behemoth corporation in Ireland the same way I like to jump on a race carver or powder skis every now and then from Fischer, Head or Blizzard at the demo days.

  6. I also like to be able to email or call the people making the skis and ask questions about the ski and thank them for making a nice product...something I can't seem to do with the kick-ass skis from Head, Rossignol, K2, Fischer, Dynastar, Atomic, Elan...etc.

  7. Besides....I'm a geek and I like unusual skis..... It's all about personal preference and where you want to spend your money. Besides....when you visit many of the small ski makers who have a brick-and-mortar storefront or build shop, you can usually get a nice craft beer or glass of spirits while you geek out about skis with the proprietors....

    Let's hope it DUMPS this season for skiers everywhere!
 

bbbradley

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looks like I have a challenge for you

looks like you have a challenge for me

that's can be easily change/improve. Make sure you bring beer you are making

You are in RI, I see...We'll swap marketing services for skis and use the homebrew as the third lever in the transaction. :)
 

Eric Edelstein

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**ADMIN NOTE: THIS TOPIC WAS MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD TO IT'S OWN**



I ought to be really excited about these microbrands, I love watch microbrands but.....

Do I want to get into a car made by a multinational with an R&D budget of a zillion bucks, a factory run by computers with quality control tolerances measured by lasers or one built by some cool guys in a shed with interesting tastes in beer. The microbrand product might be amazing, but ... if I want to know that it will start most mornings, it won't rust in 3 years and the wheels won't fall off on a tight bend.... hmmm.

Can you afford to build 500 prototypes, send them to 200 pisteurs to test and then work out which of the minor design and material variables makes the best of the top ten the best?

With enough money I'd have a VW as a daily driver [or indeed a Bentley] but a slightly mad hand built AC Cobra replica for weekends and sunny days.

Not an argument against what these guys are doing, they're the local coffee shop vs starbucks, but if I go to an independent coffee shop and it's toe curlingly bitter [not uncommon] I've dropped a few coins, and ask for a lighter roast next time, with a big investment...

I want a microbrand made by THESE guys...!
 

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