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Jamt

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I don't like the broom shaft example. The skis do not care how the forces between the boot and the binding are created. It cannot tell if a force comes from heel and shaft pressure or even under foot pressure.
In a "normal" balanced position the pressure center should be slightly less than 10cm (4 inches) in front of the ankle joint center, and that point should coincide with the ski's sweet spot.

If you are skiing with 4G forces you cannot have only heel/shin contact. BoF, Heel AND shin contact is required. It is not an either or thing.

I only skimmed this tread but I think a major point is missing, and that is how the for-aft relation must shift throughout the turn.

Assuming you are fore enough when you put the skis on edge and set the edges the hooking up of the ski will shift the force under the ski forward due to the increased bending of the shovel part.
If you are just standing around in static fore-aft balance at this time you will inevitably be pushed into the back seat, because the GRF is forward of the CoM. This is especially true if you are already standing on your heels and shin because then the only compensation you can do is to push on your heels.
You have to meet this shift of pressure proactively, i.e. the CoM has to be moving forward over the skis in the turn initiation (or equally the skis have to be moving aft in relation to CoM).
After this, If the turn is carved the fore-aft will be pretty fixed during the turn phase and the CoM will move aft again as the forces are released.
If the turn is brushed the initial CoM position is more fore, and it should move progressively aft throughout the turn.

Sometimes you have to be extra much forward in order to bend the shovel of the ski more. For example with the last years 35 m GS skis you often had to do whatever you could to bend them.
 

Doby Man

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You don’t apply pressure. The snow reaction force applies pressure to you. The only question is whether or not you are properly aligned to deal with it. If you are, that force vector passes directly along the tibial axis which means that you feel it where the tibia intersects with the foot - just forward of the heel. Ron Kipp actually explains this pretty clearly in the video you linked.!

Proper "alignment" of what? Some people will refer to that as pressure or weight the management of which is what we use to eek out the ground force reaction (returning pressure?) that we seek. I have also read others who prefer the term "balance" over pressure. What are we balancing? Pressure/weight/force call it what you want.

I was using that clip due to how he demonstrates that it is the ball of the foot that is over the center of the ski, not the arch and definitely not the heel. And, that because "expert" skiers apply their center of mass over the length of the ski tip to tail, I believe that would further conclude that ball of foot pressure in turn initiation is key for experts who "work" the ski fore to aft. It also shows how any analogy regarding a "broomstick" would have very little relevance to the actual anatomy of the foot "unless" you plan on 'not' using the whole foot which is unfortunately the bane of many a skiers lack of development. It simply suggests that we can ski without that part of the foot which is fine if we would rather not carve the ski fore to aft. When we disinclude the ball of the foot, we also disinclude the metatarsal lever which is highly critical in the ability to use the foot to create fore/aft leverage in the boot/ski. Take away the ball of foot and we take away the ability for the metatarsal lever ("leever") that connects the ball to the heel and the leverage it supplies.

Though, I do believe that a lot of "expert" skiers ski like what LF's friend's broomstick example would suggest which is simply heel pressure to cuff pressure like a broom stick because modern skis and boots allow this to happen in making a reasonably decent carved turn. However, this would suggest that the best we can do with our feet is to ski as if we were "double peg legged pirates" with no ball of foot and metatarsal lever that connects it to the rest of the foot. Think about it: draw a line of leverage between your "upper front cuff pressure point" and the "heel pressure point" while you are in your skis and boots, this allows us to "lean' into the boot, but in a limited way. This is because we cannot share pressure between the two - once we are on the heel, we are off the cuff. Once we are on the cuff, we are off the heal. When we, instead, draw a leverage line between the upper cuff pressure point and the ball of foot pressure point, we are able to pressure both at the same time and thus are given much more fore/aft leverage power over the boot. Heal to cuff may work for those who are simply riding the center of the ski (and for those with broom sticks for lower limbs) but it does not supply nearly the same fore aft leverage over the boot for those who prefer to carve and work the ski front to back. For some skiers, the boot is nothing more than a base of support such as the housing on a stick shift. For others, the relationship of the foot to the boot offers the ability to leverage that base of support in a far more complex manner that is reserved for those who ski from the feet.

I can certainly understand how using the entire foot in skiing, specifically the ball of foot and metatarsal lever, is going to see some kickback as there are many expert skiers who are able to make decent enough turns while ignoring the feet altogether as their lower body focus is limited to pushing the shin into the boot like they are shifting gears in a standard shift car. That is what may be required for skiers who need to apply most of their focus on what their upper bodies are doing.

Regarding the comment that we don't "apply pressure", that is nothing more than a preference on frame of reference and terminology for which we all have to make an effort to translate back and forth to each other if we are ever going to have a meaningful discussion on technique. Your view sounds like to me that you believe the force between the skier and ski is a one way street. But I expect that you know that this force is a two way street where we have to give in order to receive. Without the control of how our weight is "pressured" over the ski, we have no control of the "returning" ground force reaction. In ski technique, everything is cyclically relational and nothing happens in isolation. Whether one prefers to use the term pressure application, weight shift, etc., etc should not matter when we are attempting to arrive at some sort of consensus around a core concept.
 

HardDaysNight

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Proper "alignment" of what? Some people will refer to that as pressure or weight the management of which is what we use to eek out the ground force reaction (returning pressure?) that we seek. I have also read others who prefer the term "balance" over pressure. What are we balancing? Pressure/weight/force call it what you want.

I was using that clip due to how he demonstrates that it is the ball of the foot that is over the center of the ski, not the arch and definitely not the heel. And, that because "expert" skiers apply their center of mass over the length of the ski tip to tail, I believe that would further conclude that ball of foot pressure in turn initiation is key for experts who "work" the ski fore to aft. It also shows how any analogy regarding a "broomstick" would have very little relevance to the actual anatomy of the foot "unless" you plan on 'not' using the whole foot which is unfortunately the bane of many a skiers lack of development. It simply suggests that we can ski without that part of the foot which is fine if we would rather not carve the ski fore to aft. When we disinclude the ball of the foot, we also disinclude the metatarsal lever which is highly critical in the ability to use the foot to create fore/aft leverage in the boot/ski. Take away the ball of foot and we take away the ability for the metatarsal lever ("leever") that connects the ball to the heel and the leverage it supplies.

Though, I do believe that a lot of "expert" skiers ski like what LF's friend's broomstick example would suggest which is simply heel pressure to cuff pressure like a broom stick because modern skis and boots allow this to happen in making a reasonably decent carved turn. However, this would suggest that the best we can do with our feet is to ski as if we were "double peg legged pirates" with no ball of foot and metatarsal lever that connects it to the rest of the foot. Think about it: draw a line of leverage between your "upper front cuff pressure point" and the "heel pressure point" while you are in your skis and boots, this allows us to "lean' into the boot, but in a limited way. This is because we cannot share pressure between the two - once we are on the heel, we are off the cuff. Once we are on the cuff, we are off the heal. When we, instead, draw a leverage line between the upper cuff pressure point and the ball of foot pressure point, we are able to pressure both at the same time and thus are given much more fore/aft leverage power over the boot. Heal to cuff may work for those who are simply riding the center of the ski (and for those with broom sticks for lower limbs) but it does not supply nearly the same fore aft leverage over the boot for those who prefer to carve and work the ski front to back. For some skiers, the boot is nothing more than a base of support such as the housing on a stick shift. For others, the relationship of the foot to the boot offers the ability to leverage that base of support in a far more complex manner that is reserved for those who ski from the feet.

I can certainly understand how using the entire foot in skiing, specifically the ball of foot and metatarsal lever, is going to see some kickback as there are many expert skiers who are able to make decent enough turns while ignoring the feet altogether as their lower body focus is limited to pushing the shin into the boot like they are shifting gears in a standard shift car. That is what may be required for skiers who need to apply most of their focus on what their upper bodies are doing.

Regarding the comment that we don't "apply pressure", that is nothing more than a preference on frame of reference and terminology for which we all have to make an effort to translate back and forth to each other if we are ever going to have a meaningful discussion on technique. Your view sounds like to me that you believe the force between the skier and ski is a one way street. But I expect that you know that this force is a two way street where we have to give in order to receive. Without the control of how our weight is "pressured" over the ski, we have no control of the "returning" ground force reaction. In ski technique, everything is cyclically relational and nothing happens in isolation. Whether one prefers to use the term pressure application, weight shift, etc., etc should not matter when we are attempting to arrive at some sort of consensus around a core concept.

This is an interesting post and we might not be as disparate in views as it seems. My posts have been referring to that part of the turn where forces are at their peak-approximately the middle third of the turn from just before to just after the apex (or gate if you like). Alignment here refers to the stacking of the torso and hips over the BOS so that the skeleton supports as much of the load as possible. It is also here that I contend that the ankle is closed and that the force vector runs up the tibial axis and the focus of pressure in the foot is where the tibia intersects with the foot, just forward of the heel and, incidentally, at the apex of the arch, the anatomically strongest sector of the foot.

But there are other phases of the turn too. Consider what happens as the skier begins to release the turn after the pressure or impulse phase. The skis carve up under the body and begin to move out to the new side. What will become the new outside leg begins to extend - it has too because of the geometry of the situation - and the ankle opens, plantarflexes, obviously within the constraints of the ski boot. The balance point within the foot is now BOF, but there is very little pressure to resist at this point. The end of one turn is the beginning of the next, you can’t finish a turn in a different state of balance from that in which the new turn is to begin and still link turns smoothly. The COM moves more directly downhill as the skis take a longer path, the ankle closes and sets up the alignment described in the first paragraph in preparation for the next pressure phase.
 

Rod9301

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I don't understand why the ankle has to open at the beginning of the turn.

I, in the contrary, pull the feet strongly back in the transition to close the ankles.
 

Jamt

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To get a complete picture it is not enough to look at the state of the ankle joint, we must also know the state of the involved muscles.
If I stand on my kitchen table and jump down onto the floor my ankle joint will close when I land. Dorsiflexion. This does not mean I am using my dorsiflexion muscles. That would likely require a trip to the hospital. Similarly, when the large turn forces engage, the ankle joint may dorsiflex, but that does not mean I am using my dorsiflexion muscles (I may for the inside leg).
Similarly at the end of a turn with lots of shin pressure there is no other way to go than plantar flexion, but who knows, I may still be using my dorsiflexion muscles.

All studies I can recollect that uses an underfoot pressure measurement instrument on high end racers show lots of pressure around BOF around apex. This does not mean the heel is in the air, and it does not mean the skier is plantar flexing.
 

HardDaysNight

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I don't understand why the ankle has to open at the beginning of the turn.

I, in the contrary, pull the feet strongly back in the transition to close the ankles.

Certainly a legit move. It does imply that the ankles must have opened at some point though. And if one pulls back the feet, they must have moved forward prior to making that move. Both those things do happen as the skis pass under the body and out to the new side. That’s good skiing!
 

agreen

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Getting back to mental thoughts/images of keeping weight forward one thing that I think has helped me is:

whenever I am standing around (not skiing) I practice having my weight forward, in the lift lines, in the lunch line, waiting for my friends, posing for a picture etc.
I think it just gets you feeling more comfortable in that position.
Excuse me if this has been stated previously, I didnt read through all
 

Fuller

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I spent today working on moving my hips forward or "pushing the bush". The day before I was focusing on feeling pressure on the front "corners" of the boot cuff. I've come to the conclusion that you can easily convince yourself that you are forward but still be too far back just concentrating on cuff pressure. The forward hips had a much greater effect on my skiing, a positive one, and I just feel looser and more able to react to what my feet were doing. In technical terms I guess my COM responds to more subtle inputs from the BOS when it is positioned correctly.

Economy of motion, rounder turns, better style and faster skiing all from one little change. My challenge now is to be able to do that in steeper more varied conditions.

To be fair it was not the "push the bush" saying that got me there it was that Kate Howe video when she modeled how women stand vs men. I find her quite annoying but I guess it worked.
 

JESinstr

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I spent today working on moving my hips forward or "pushing the bush". The day before I was focusing on feeling pressure on the front "corners" of the boot cuff. I've come to the conclusion that you can easily convince yourself that you are forward but still be too far back just concentrating on cuff pressure. The forward hips had a much greater effect on my skiing, a positive one, and I just feel looser and more able to react to what my feet were doing. In technical terms I guess my COM responds to more subtle inputs from the BOS when it is positioned correctly.

Economy of motion, rounder turns, better style and faster skiing all from one little change. My challenge now is to be able to do that in steeper more varied conditions.

To be fair it was not the "push the bush" saying that got me there it was that Kate Howe video when she modeled how women stand vs men. I find her quite annoying but I guess it worked.

Good for you! Of the 3 hinges (ankles, knees, hips) I find the ankles most important and the hips (pelvis) most critical.
 
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ATLSkier

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I had a ski instructor at Grand Targhee call the push the bush concept "presenting the package." I love that and it has helped me a lot.
 

Tim Hodgson

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ATLSkier: Be careful when you read this thread. The initial posts in response to your question implied a flat ski, steered/guided skidded rounded turn. This type of turn is helpful in steeps because a flat ski skidded turn is the shortest radius turn you can make. Which is helpful to turn out of the fall line quickly and across and maybe up the hill a little to a reduce speed in the steeps.

Later posts in this thread spoke of carving. Not helpful for steeps, because a ski on a metal edge is much faster than a skidded ski. And we are usually trying to reduce speed on the steeps. And because a ski locked into a carve is going to make (approximately) the turn radius which is designed into the ski (you will see it written on the ski's tail). Which on the steeps, or on bumps, or in the trees may be to long of an arc for you to avoid obstacles.

So dynamically balancing on that flat, guided/steered skidded ski while making a round turn shape is the holy grail of skiing.

And to try to achieve that, I personally have been trying to initiate my turns by swinging my pole out about 20 inches in front of my downhill ski with my arms almost straight out like Frankenstein (my wife calls them robot arms) and because my hands are connected to my arms and my arms are connected to my torso, my torso moves my belly button-over-my- boots body (CoM) down the hill toward the pole, and when my boots pass the pole tip in the snow, I tip the downhill edge of my downhill (pole side) ski down the hill and tip the downhill edge of my uphill ski and push off it so that my torso/hips are continuing the swimming pool "dive" down the hill with both arms/hands still outstretched. Then guide the skis skidding into a round arc by squishing the tongues with my shins and twisting/guiding the skis into a round turn uphill to safety. "Squish em and twist em..." Eric Arnold.

So, I kind of think of "getting forward" as a shin, pole, hips/torso push off the downhill edge of the uphill ski move.

All of these movements work together to keep your CoM moving down the hill and off of your heals.

I emphasize picking up the tail of (and pulling back) the pole side ski after my boots pass the pole tip in the snow to lighten the ski's tail so that the currently uphill but coming around and soon-to-be-new-downhill-ski has the pressure.

So, I am very intrigued what type of turn and where in the turn LiquidFeet pressures the entire length of the ski because everything I said above could, of course, be wrong...
 
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KingGrump

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And to try to achieve that, I personally have been trying to initiate my turns by swinging my pole out about 20 inches in front of my downhill ski with my arms almost straight out like Frankenstein (my wife calls them robot arms) and because my hands are connected to my arms and my arms are connected to my torso, my torso moves my belly button-over-my- boots body (CoM) down the hill toward the pole, and when my boots pass the pole tip in the snow, I tip the downhill edge of my downhill (pole side) ski down the hill and tip the downhill edge of my uphill ski and push off it so that my torso/hips are continuing the swimming pool "dive" down the hill with both arms/hands still outstretched. Then guide the skis skidding into a round arc by squishing the tongues with my shins and twisting/guiding the skis into a round turn uphill to safety. "Squish em and twist em..." Eric Arnold.

Not quite getting the image the exact spot the pole plant lands.
I'm assuming rather steep terrain. Your skis are more or less across the fall line during transition.
So where is the pole plant? 20 inches in front of the tip of the downhill ski inline with the ski? Or 20 inches downhill from the tip of the downhill ski? Allittle of both?
 

slowrider

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@ Tim Hodgson
So dynamically balancing on that flat, guided/steered skidded ski while making a round turn shape is the holy grail of skiing.

I thought it was the carved turn that was the final level of skill.
 

Rod9301

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Not quite getting the image the exact spot the pole plant lands.
I'm assuming rather steep terrain. Your skis are more or less across the fall line during transition.
So where is the pole plant? 20 inches in front of the tip of the downhill ski inline with the ski? Or 20 inches downhill from the tip of the downhill ski? Allittle of both?
In really steep terrain, the pole should be planted below the downhill binding.

If you plant the pole near the top of the ski, one, you're reducing counter and also edge angle, and two, you will now have to ski around the pole, larger turn radius.
 

KingGrump

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In really steep terrain, the pole should be planted below the downhill binding.

If you plant the pole near the top of the ski, one, you're reducing counter and also edge angle, and two, you will now have to ski around the pole, larger turn radius.

That is how we do it here in Taos.
Just wanted to make sure Tim is saying what he is saying.
 

Rod9301

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ATLSkier: Be careful when you read this thread. The initial posts in response to your question implied a flat ski, steered/guided skidded rounded turn. This type of turn is helpful in steeps because a flat ski skidded turn is the shortest radius turn you can make. Which is helpful to turn out of the fall line quickly and across and maybe up the hill a little to a reduce speed in the steeps.

Later posts in this thread spoke of carving. Not helpful for steeps, because a ski on a metal edge is much faster than a skidded ski. And we are usually trying to reduce speed on the steeps. And because a ski locked into a carve is going to make (approximately) the turn radius which is designed into the ski (you will see it written on the ski's tail). Which on the steeps, or on bumps, or in the trees may be to long of an arc for you to avoid obstacles.

So dynamically balancing on that flat, guided/steered skidded ski while making a round turn shape is the holy grail of skiing.

And to try to achieve that, I personally have been trying to initiate my turns by swinging my pole out about 20 inches in front of my downhill ski with my arms almost straight out like Frankenstein (my wife calls them robot arms) and because my hands are connected to my arms and my arms are connected to my torso, my torso moves my belly button-over-my- boots body (CoM) down the hill toward the pole, and when my boots pass the pole tip in the snow, I tip the downhill edge of my downhill (pole side) ski down the hill and tip the downhill edge of my uphill ski and push off it so that my torso/hips are continuing the swimming pool "dive" down the hill with both arms/hands still outstretched. Then guide the skis skidding into a round arc by squishing the tongues with my shins and twisting/guiding the skis into a round turn uphill to safety. "Squish em and twist em..." Eric Arnold.

So, I kind of think of "getting forward" as a shin, pole, hips/torso push off the downhill edge of the uphill ski move.

All of these movements work together to keep your CoM moving down the hill and off of your heals.

I emphasize picking up the tail of (and pulling back) the pole side ski after my boots pass the pole tip in the snow to lighten the ski's tail so that the currently uphill but coming around and soon-to-be-new-downhill-ski has the pressure.

So, I am very intrigued what type of turn and where in the turn LiquidFeet pressures the entire length of the ski because everything I said above could, of course, be wrong...
Good description. I emphasize pulling both feet back in the air so I land centered.

Also, when I land, chest down the hill and new pole below and test to plant.
 

Chris V.

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To get a complete picture it is not enough to look at the state of the ankle joint, we must also know the state of the involved muscles.
If I stand on my kitchen table and jump down onto the floor my ankle joint will close when I land. Dorsiflexion. This does not mean I am using my dorsiflexion muscles. That would likely require a trip to the hospital. Similarly, when the large turn forces engage, the ankle joint may dorsiflex, but that does not mean I am using my dorsiflexion muscles (I may for the inside leg).
Similarly at the end of a turn with lots of shin pressure there is no other way to go than plantar flexion, but who knows, I may still be using my dorsiflexion muscles.

Concentric tension vs. eccentric tension.
 

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