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Goose

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There are so many things one can attend to while skiing.
Shin-tongue pressure. Heel pressure.
1st met pressure. Ball-of-foot pressure. Ankle tipping.
Inside foot. Outside foot. Long leg. Short leg.
Dorsiflexion. Shovel grip. Tail grip. Ski bend.
Inside half. Outside half.
Turn completion. Turn initiation. Symmetry of turns.
Rhythm. Pulse. Float. Traffic. Obstacles. Line.
Wind in the ears. Song in the head. Joy in the heart.

But honestly, I think most people are not good at paying attention to a number of things at
once, despite what this guy below seems to be doing. We have to make choices about
what's most important. If ball-of-foot is your thing, you have lots of company. But there are
other things to focus on to stay forward. We've covered a bunch of them in this thread.
cabletv.jpg

If there's something NSFW on these monitors, I didn't mean it.
yes there is a lot I agree. It can be like a golf swing with slightly different ways about it all and also we are all a little different. Even the best have some of their own version or style of what and how to. In part is why the only way one can describe things sometimes is to say 'its a feeling". A feeling of just knowing the forces are being applied in the right place at the right time.. Problem is,... that doesnt exactly help someone understand how to get there..lol and I'll let you know if I ever become perfect at it..lol

But one can place focus on "ball of foot" and yet still be out of sync with efficient position and angles and timing or a number of things. But ball of foot is a good start and honestly its the place to be for just about any sport/athletic activity. That's the place of best balance, readiness, and control for us humans when doing just about anything. I speculate its in part why ski boots are angled forward in the first place.
 

HardDaysNight

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I like this demonstration. It does bring home the bacon in some ways, indeed, I'm focusing more on my heels for a while now, than my BoF. BoF implies plantar-flexion and that is a compensation mechanism, not a getting forward mechanism. Heels also pull the boots back etc. The demo however also highlights an issue: when you're dug deep into the front of the cuff, your range of movement is over. You can't absorb anything, nor release the skis... in reality, you'll want to be off the cuffs by the apex, otherwise your release is botched.

---

Especially on the steeps, getting forward is not a matter of... well, "getting forward". It is a matter of being able to release the skis in a way that allows the COM/hips to travel down the hill and ahead of the boots. Anything else will be artificial and you won't really be "usefully forward" if you botch the release, no matter how hard you try.

You may find that this simple thought will "put" you forward again and able to keep the skis underneath you and controllable, on the steeps.

cheers

Agree with the above. Being forward or aft doesn’t have much to do with pressure on ball of foot or not. It has to do with the relationship between your COM and BOS. The reason good skiers feel the snow reaction force pushing up the tibial axis, I.e., up just forward of the heel is because they stack their bodies over their leg bones with closed ankles. It’s the most efficient way to handle the turn force as it builds.
 

Varmintmist

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I dont think it is a "keep your weight forward" thing at all. It is a put your weight on your whole ski thing.

The mental problem that you have to get around is that if you are standing on a slope, to be balanced, you stand up straight putting the hill at a angle to your feet.

To keep your weight on your skis, you have to overcome the desire to stand, and get your weight on the whole of the skis. When you do that, the control comes screaming up and slaps you in the face and yells "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO"
 

Bolder

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In non technical lingo, from a non-instructor who will probably always struggle with this issue: I like to feel my shins against the boot cuffs. I'm not saying fully closing the ankles, but definitely touching the cuffs.

The second I don't, I pull my legs back and try to turn shoulders down the fall line. I've found that as soon as my shoulders start twisting then I'm back on my heels. The other thing I do is take a half-second to raise both my tails at the same time heading down the fall line -- to do that you have to pressure the tips, and gravity pushes my upper body ahead of my lower half.

But, as I said, this is my bugbear, as it is for most intermediates. I agree that it's not so much "weight forward" as "centered and balanced." You're in that "defensive crouch" that you find in every sport, ready to react to any challenge and move in any direction.
 
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Goose

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I dont think it is a "keep your weight forward" thing at all. It is a put your weight on your whole ski thing.

The mental problem that you have to get around is that if you are standing on a slope, to be balanced, you stand up straight putting the hill at a angle to your feet.

To keep your weight on your skis, you have to overcome the desire to stand, and get your weight on the whole of the skis. When you do that, the control comes screaming up and slaps you in the face and yells "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO"
I can agree somewhat. Its really about balance, movements creating energy, and applying forces to meet that built energy in the right places at the right times. Not sure if that made sense but..lol..it sounded good while I thought it. But hence part of the problem as its not so easy to explain but needs to be felt in order to best understand it imo.

But with most of that in mind and for what you say as for keeping it forward. We are moving forward and that is something (building energy) that needs to be countered with (or dealt with) via apposing forces and/or with good balance in order to then ski correctly even if going faster in straight line and also certainly when making any turns. Even if technically turning to the side (cross hill) the skis are still always moving forward. So by default we need to be forward. By nature of the forward moving scenario we in general need to be forward in order to meet the forces associated with moving forward, and to be balanced and in control.
 

Goose

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In non technical lingo, from a non-instructor who will probably always struggle with this issue: I like to feel my shins against the boot cuffs. I'm not saying fully closing the ankles, but definitely touching the cuffs.

The second I don't, I pull my legs back and try to turn shoulders down the fall line. I've found that as soon as my shoulders start twisting then I'm back on my heels. The other thing I do is take a half-second to raise both my tails at the same time heading down the fall line -- to do that you have to pressure the tips, and gravity pushes my upper body ahead of my lower half.

But, as I said, this is my bugbear, as it is for most intermediates. I agree that it's not so much "weight forward" as "centered and balanced." You're in that "defensive crouch" that you find in every sport, ready to react to any challenge and move in any direction.
I like to think of it as simply to say "READY" and not defensive or aggressive individually but actually both.

But as said earlier you can also ski/carve wonderfully with the shoulders aligned with the hips, skis and lower body. Usually on slope not as steep and with wider carved turns. We see it all the time and is very efficient too. There is a difference between leaning back (not being forward) vs having all aligned. That is also done without any leaning back and is still generally speaking a balanced , forward, and ready posture wit forces in the right places. Though we are talking steeper slope here so may not apply so much.
 

runbikeski

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Then he took a broom handle and stuck in down into the boot, pressing its end downward where the heel of the foot would be. He tilted the whole broom handle forward so it pressed into the front of the cuff at the same time. When the two volunteers tried to lift their ends of the ski, neither was successful. Both the shovel and the tail were "pressured" downwards. The heel pressure came from the end of the broomstick, and the shovel pressure came from the front-of-cuff pressure. Note: there was NO ball-of-foot pressure; nothing was in the boot in that area. Worth repeating: no ball-of-foot pressure at all.

His point: you can give both ends of the ski a chance to grip the snow if you stand on the rear of your foot while successfully pressing forward into the front of the boot cuff. Doing that involves "closing" the ankle, which moves the entire body from the ankle up forward -- all that weight causes the lower leg to press into the boot cuff which keeps the shovel weighted.

This part of LiquidFeet's post reminded me of this video starting 2:35:
 

JESinstr

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Like all good skiing, proper alignment with the ski is critical. And it is easy to loose when the going gets tough. In terms of fore and aft dynamic balance, it is key that we maintain balance through the arch and this requires proper and cohesive flexion from all three hinges (ankles, knees and hips) Thinking that we need our weight forward and the solution is to press into the tongue of the boot often causes disruption of the flexion ecosystem especially at the hip. Bending at the waist or other efforts to press forward can affect how the pelvis rotates in relation to the femurs. (Aside: thanks @Josh Matta and @LiquidFeet for setting me straight on this earlier this season) .

Here is a Kate Howe video on stance and she talks a lot about the how to position the pelvis for proper alignment.

I write this because I now focus on making sure my pelvis is rotating properly as I flex (especially on the steeps) and this has been a great help.

 

slowrider

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Instead of being ready. I like to think go. Always going to the next task in balance.
One of my ski friends has remarked a few times that I ski from my knees down. Not sure if that's good or bad.
 

Doby Man

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If we want to apply pressure to the center of the ski, something everybody seems to agree upon, then the ball of foot is what is over the center of the ski. Period. Even isolating pressure to the arch is, architecturally, back seat over the ski. Therefore, applying any pressure to the heel that is more pressure than what is over the ball of foot puts the skier in the back seat. Now, that is OK for the skier who works the ski fore-to-aft to get a higher level of carving performance out of the ski and riding the tail a bit in turn phase three, that of which, however, is a level of skiing beyond most of “today’s - shaped ski” advanced intermediate skiers. That said, even many or most of today’s expert skiers on shaped skis are skiing “only” from the center.

Focussing on only cuff and heel pressure eliminates much of the anatomy that expert skiers use to control ski pressure along the ski. When we compare the fore-aft leverage we get over the ski from A. cuff to heel and B. from cuff to ball of foot, only the cuff to ball can provide leverage simply because we can pressure the cuff and ball at the same time. Though, when we try to pressure the front cuff and heel at the same time, we find that, in “reality” this is not possible. We cannot obtain nearly as much fore/aft leverage over the ski because we have to have pressure on both points with which to create that leverage.

 

Goose

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If we want to apply pressure to the center of the ski, something everybody seems to agree upon, then the ball of foot is what is over the center of the ski. Period. Even isolating pressure to the arch is, architecturally, back seat over the ski. Therefore, applying any pressure to the heel that is more pressure than what is over the ball of foot puts the skier in the back seat. Now, that is OK for the skier who works the ski fore-to-aft to get a higher level of carving performance out of the ski and riding the tail a bit in turn phase three, that of which, however, is a level of skiing beyond most of “today’s - shaped ski” advanced intermediate skiers. That said, even many or most of today’s expert skiers on shaped skis are skiing “only” from the center.

Focussing on only cuff and heel pressure eliminates much of the anatomy that expert skiers use to control ski pressure along the ski. When we compare the fore-aft leverage we get over the ski from A. cuff to heel and B. from cuff to ball of foot, only the cuff to ball can provide leverage simply because we can pressure the cuff and ball at the same time. Though, when we try to pressure the front cuff and heel at the same time, we find that, in “reality” this is not possible. We cannot obtain nearly as much fore/aft leverage over the ski because we have to have pressure on both points with which to create that leverage.

but are not different skis with bindings more or less forward/back?
System skis have bindings in different places. An intermediate ski sits the binding a tad more forward while a more advanced on sits further back. Then we have flkat skis where people position bindings differently too. So is it fair to say that the ball of foot may or may not be center? I don't know if we can call it center of ski but perhaps better said center of where our mass needs to be or needs to meet the ski. And could be in different places (within reason). Not even to mention different shaped people. Some are larger up top (wide shoulders), others not so much plus we carry different weights up top vs bottoms etc, etc,. Not to suggest skiing on heels but only in reference of what we might consider "center" of gravity pressure on the ski vs actual ski center.
 

HardDaysNight

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Therefore, applying any pressure to the heel that is more pressure than what is over the ball of foot puts the skier in the back seat.

You don’t apply pressure. The snow reaction force applies pressure to you. The only question is whether or not you are properly aligned to deal with it. If you are, that force vector passes directly along the tibial axis which means that you feel it where the tibia intersects with the foot - just forward of the heel. Ron Kipp actually explains this pretty clearly in the video you linked.

Don’t worry LiquidFeet, you and Matt Boyd aren’t wrong!
 

Rod9301

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If we want to apply pressure to the center of the ski, something everybody seems to agree upon, then the ball of foot is what is over the center of the ski. Period. Even isolating pressure to the arch is, architecturally, back seat over the ski. Therefore, applying any pressure to the heel that is more pressure than what is over the ball of foot puts the skier in the back seat. Now, that is OK for the skier who works the ski fore-to-aft to get a higher level of carving performance out of the ski and riding the tail a bit in turn phase three, that of which, however, is a level of skiing beyond most of “today’s - shaped ski” advanced intermediate skiers. That said, even many or most of today’s expert skiers on shaped skis are skiing “only” from the center.

Focussing on only cuff and heel pressure eliminates much of the anatomy that expert skiers use to control ski pressure along the ski. When we compare the fore-aft leverage we get over the ski from A. cuff to heel and B. from cuff to ball of foot, only the cuff to ball can provide leverage simply because we can pressure the cuff and ball at the same time. Though, when we try to pressure the front cuff and heel at the same time, we find that, in “reality” this is not possible. We cannot obtain nearly as much fore/aft leverage over the ski because we have to have pressure on both points with which to create that leverage.

Nope.



You can definitely have the weight under the tibia and pressure the tongues. I do it all the time. All you need to do is pull your feet back and keep the eightw under the arch.

And no, experts do not ski from the center, without pressuring the tip of the ski. To do this should be to ski the natural radius of the ski.
If you want to tighten the turn, you definitely need to strongly pull the feet back.
 

Goose

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You don’t apply pressure. The snow reaction force applies pressure to you. !

But the reaction force/s are only created by your initial applied pressure (or force/s). The snow is just sitting there until we come by and place forces on/into it and in turn we receive that back. So we are applying and creating the pressure (or force/s).
 

PTskier

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The point missing in Doby's video was the effort needed to flex the boots forward. Even in well fitted boots there can be some fore & aft movement before the boot has to flex much. Beyond that it can be impossible to flex the boot forward with the small muscles in the ankle & front of the lower leg. This is where the three big, strong hamstring muscles down the backs of the thighs serve us. The hamstrings can pull our feet back in relation to our center of mass and flex even those stiff 130 boots the ski coach was using as a prop. Dorsiflexing works for small, quick adjustments. Big movements need big muscles.

Doby wrote: "...when we try to pressure the front cuff and heel at the same time, we find that, in “reality” this is not possible. We cannot obtain nearly as much fore/aft leverage over the ski...." And, just pressuring the front of the cuff by squatting down does nothing to move the body's center of mass forward in relation to the skis. Locating the CoM in the sweet spot over the skis is the real goal.

I strengthen my dorsiflexion muscles by pulling up on my click-in bike pedals on the upstroke.
 

Josh Matta

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You don’t apply pressure. The snow reaction force applies pressure to you. The only question is whether or not you are properly aligned to deal with it. If you are, that force vector passes directly along the tibial axis which means that you feel it where the tibia intersects with the foot - just forward of the heel. Ron Kipp actually explains this pretty clearly in the video you linked.

Don’t worry LiquidFeet, you and Matt Boyd aren’t wrong!

Pressure is a feedback mech a nothing more.

I also have a hard time watching a video from someone who tries to objectively knock fat skis, with out using any objective arguments.
 

HardDaysNight

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But the reaction force/s are only created by your initial applied pressure (or force/s). The snow is just sitting there until we come by and place forces on/into it and in turn we receive that back. So we are applying and creating the pressure (or force/s).

No. Gravity ultimately is creating the force pulling the skier downhill. We convert that to centripetal force by tipping the ski on edge, which causes it to bend, and then balancing on it. The question at issue here is how to align ourselves most efficiently to do that.
 
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JESinstr

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We need to be careful here. All that has be written above IMO has been with the assumption that sufficient velocity is present to create centripetal force enough to overcome gravity as the balance force of record. Gravity plays two rolls in skiing. As HDN stated, it is the velocity creator. But at low speed, it is also the force we react with to sustain balance until the CREATED push of centripetal takes over. So until we receive the push of centripetal we are reliant on the pull of gravity (our weight) to pressure and bend the ski.
 

HardDaysNight

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I understand what you’re getting at and agree that the balance shifts as speed increases and radius decreases. I’d point out though that without some centripetal force there is no turn at all, by definition. In any event it’s not really that germane to the main topic of the thread.
 

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