Mental Thoughts/Images to Keep Weight Forward

[martyg]

This is a matter of perspective. I don't know what @Crank does in real life, but IIRC, Josh is an engineer. For Josh it isn't a leap of faith; just math. Math that by the way, makes perfect sense. I also would guess Josh skis more per season than most do across several seasons or even a decade.

I think the leap is releasing the edges for that split second and the faith is the new edge will re-engage. As @slowrider stated, confidence is what is needed. It is built in baby steps gradually working up to steeps. This is also why I get so upset when I see little kids in a power wedge on steep terrain. What have they learned other than to brace against the mountain or stem their turns. Crap I have to undo when they finally make it to my group.

The "Up and Over" drill works well for this. Starting on easy terrain and working to steeper, when you come out of a turn lift the downhill ski just before transition (skis need to be across the fall line - "skis to trees"). On the uphill ski, you should be on your uphill edge. I tell me athletes to try to go a little uphill at this point. Once there, still on just the uphill ski (about to be the outside ski), make the turn going from uphill edge to downhill edge (Still across the falline). As you come out of the turn put the ski that is in the air down and at transition, lift the new downhill ski (the one you were just skiing on). Rinse and repeat.

Builds confidence and you know right where your edges are. One of my favorites. I do this often and especially when I get new skis or go from SL to GS skis.

Have fun,
Ken

Winner winner chicken dinner.

One has to let go of control to gain control. The building of a skill set builds confidence. The drill in paragraph three will enable you to get on that new downhill ski earlier (If I understand what L&Air is conveying). Keep in mind that the driver of your turn - the element that sets up the Kinesthetic chain reaction that is the turn, is your COM moving in the direction that you want to go. Mentally, I think about flattening and releasing that new inside ski.

All of this happens simultaneously - not sequentially.

 

[slowrider]

A good task for me to install that "go to" move for steeper terrain is to find a bench with a headwall and and go from a stand still to high angle direct fall line short swing turns. If you get going to fast you need to increase vertical separation. An exilarating drill.

 

[karlo]

What are the thoughts or mental images you

I think of the slope as a dance floor. Try doing a waltz or foxtrot, with very smooth, stable, (quiet) upper body while aft. Not possible. Try to far forward. Not possible. And, as it is a mountain, not a dance floor, the aspect of the floor is ever-changing as one skis down. So, I "cut" every turn to the dance floor.

 

[razie]

Then he took a broom handle and stuck in down into the boot, pressing its end downward where the heel of the foot would be. He tilted the whole broom handle forward so it pressed into the front of the cuff at the same time.

I like this demonstration. It does bring home the bacon in some ways, indeed, I'm focusing more on my heels for a while now, than my BoF. BoF implies plantar-flexion and that is a compensation mechanism, not a getting forward mechanism. Heels also pull the boots back etc. The demo however also highlights an issue: when you're dug deep into the front of the cuff, your range of movement is over. You can't absorb anything, nor release the skis... in reality, you'll want to be off the cuffs by the apex, otherwise your release is botched.

---

Especially on the steeps, getting forward is not a matter of... well, "getting forward". It is a matter of being able to release the skis in a way that allows the COM/hips to travel down the hill and ahead of the boots. Anything else will be artificial and you won't really be "usefully forward" if you botch the release, no matter how hard you try.

You may find that this simple thought will "put" you forward again and able to keep the skis underneath you and controllable, on the steeps.

cheers

 

[jo3st3]

attack the hill, press into the tongue. It's not rocket science. If you're scared, you will get weight back vs forward of the bottom ski... and that's no bueno.

As pointed out on this video, your body needs to maintain an angle with the hill.


And maintaining your balance

 

[CalG]

attack the hill, press into the tongue. It's not rocket science. If you're scared, you will get weight back vs forward of the bottom ski... and that's no bueno.

Is this advice contrary to those who advocate "standing on your tibia" (read heel)?
There are several recent threads with exactly that expression. I don't experience the "heel " part myself, and your suggestion is in line with my own.

Just wondering where the "heel standing". comes from.

 

[jo3st3]

Is this advice contrary to those who advocate "standing on your tibia" (read heel)?
There are several recent threads with exactly that expression. I don't experience the "heel " part myself, and your suggestion is in line with my own.

Just wondering where the "heel standing". comes from.

I have no idea. If I feel I'm standing on my heel, I'm in the backseat. I would say it's more like pressing on the ball of my foot. It's not way forward or back of the arch, just slightly forward. Turning is pressure on the left and right corner of the tongue type feeling.

 

[slowrider]

Do you move pressure from the ball to the heel throughout the turn phase?

 

[Crank]

Do you move pressure from the ball to the heel throughout the turn phase?

I used to. That was considered advanced carving technique back in the straight ski era.

Well really more edge pressure from shovel back to tail...not really heel pressure. I sometimes use heel pressure to float tips in heavier low angle powder but that’s about it.

 

[jo3st3]

Do you move pressure from the ball to the heel throughout the turn phase?

I can only speak for myself, but the only time I feel heel pressure is if I'm stopping. If I'm going down the hill, I'm trying to maintain my bodies angle with the hill, and pressing on the ball of my foot. Is it possible the weight is moving back and forth throughout, like centered to the ball of my foot, probably so, but I don't think about it that much or that way.

 

[slowrider]

On steeper terrain the ball of the foot and on easier terrain finish on the heel for acceleration out of the turn. Or is that old school?

 

[Rod9301]

The weight has to be under your arch. But you need to close the ankle, which means you pressure the tongues.
Which will pressure the tips of your skis.

Two different concerts, where your weight is, and how you pressure the tips of the skis.

If your weight is on the balls of your feet, the tails will wash out.


I know it doesn't seem to make sense, so you need to experiment with this.

In a turn, you could have as much as twice your body weight on the outside foot.

There is no way you could withstand that force unless it goes thru your tibia, but the ball of the foot. Like doing a squat.

 

[CalG]

Thinking that the fore foot can not support the body weight at 2G acceleration is mis informed.

 

[DavidSkis]

I've never heard all this "get forward" and "move in" advice from the level 4s in Canada, outside of the race coach's federation. Rather I hear a lot about finding balance and equilibrium through the arc.

The skiers who constantly try to get forward and "move in" often appear, to me, to have a lot of upper body rotation at the top of the arc and fall to the inside.

So my question to everyone who's talking about getting forward: Why? Are you skiing on your heels right now? Are your tips coming off the snow?


Learn to progressively balance over the outside ski through a centered and mobile stance, and the turn will come. Force the turn by "getting forward" and you will become out of balance on a variety of axes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
Just wondering where the "heel standing". comes from.

There are so many ways of misunderstand "ball-of-foot" admonitions.

Telling skiers to "pressure" the ball-of-foot often gets misinterpreted as "pressing" down with the ball-of-foot by opening up the ankle (plantarflexion). That's what a driver does when pressing on the gas pedal. This pushes the calf back towards the back of the cuff, which is problematic.

Telling skiers to "stand on" or "weight" the ball-of-foot often gets misinterpreted as lifting or lightening the heel. This pushes the shin towards the front of the cuff, which is not a problem. But the light/lifted heel loosens the tail of the ski from the snow and allows it to deflect without much control.

Getting performance out of the whole ski, shovel and tail, does not require either of these misunderstood ways of getting ball-of-foot pressure. But that doesn't mean ball-of-foot pressure is not good; it is.

If a skier bends forward at the ankles (dorsiflexion) so that the shins contact the fronts of the cuffs, if that skier hovers the body above those cuffs so its weight presses the shin downward into the cuffs, and if that skier plants the heels solidly and firmly onto the boot sole beneath, then the body's center of mass will be located somewhere in between those heels and the shins. The skier can move the CoM fore-aft between those two points, while keeping heels firmly planted and pressing into the fronts of the cuffs. Only a small range of motion is required to make these adjustments. Keeping the heels firmly planted keeps the tails from swishing out at the top of the turn and washing out downhill at the end. Maintaining shin-tongue pressure in the cuff keeps the shovels pressed into the snow (assuming skis with camber).

Doing these things certainly does not make the tips levitate. No one here is advocating an aft stance. The result of heel and shin-tongue pressure, both together, is whole-ski control and whole ski performance, and oh by the way ball-of-foot pressure.

When a skier feels pressure under the ball-of-foot, the snow is pushing back upward on the ski to cause that pressure. The skier tells the snow to target its pressure under the ball-of-foot (a good thing) by adjusting where body's mass is between the heel and the front of the cuff, those two contact points. But the skier is not pressing down on the ball-of-foot to get shovel pressure; the snow is pressing upward. Ball-of-foot pressure is a result, not a cause.

When a skier tips the outside ski onto its big toe edge by rolling the ankle to the inside, then the pressure of the snow pushing back upward on the ski will be targeted to the inside edge of the ski and boot. If that skier's weight is hovering far enough forward between the heel and the cuff, then there will be significant pressure felt under the shovel of the ski and under the 1st metatarsal (the big toe part of the ball-of-foot). But the skier is not "pushing down" on the 1st met. The skier is manipulating the snow's push-back to target it onto that particular point under the boot.

The skier can do this with the 5th met as well, pulling back on the inside foot and rolling that ankle to its little toe edge.

 

[Josh Matta]

I've never heard all this "get forward" and "move in" advice from the level 4s in Canada, outside of the race coach's federation. Rather I hear a lot about finding balance and equilibrium through the arc.

The skiers who constantly try to get forward and "move in" often appear, to me, to have a lot of upper body rotation at the top of the arc and fall to the inside.

So my question to everyone who's talking about getting forward: Why? Are you skiing on your heels right now? Are your tips coming off the snow?


Learn to progressively balance over the outside ski through a centered and mobile stance, and the turn will come. Force the turn by "getting forward" and you will become out of balance on a variety of axes.

There has been many post by me over the years, and @LiquidFeet in this thread about how forward can be taken WAY to far, and balancing over the whole ski is what is needed.

 

[Dakine]

Keep it simple.
Be mindful of shin pressure and adjust the rest of your body to give you the shin pressure your skis want to do what you are trying to do.
You find that out through experimentation.
Just feel how hard the front of your shins contacts the front of your boot cuff and ski on.

 

[Rod9301]

There are so many ways of misunderstand "ball-of-foot" admonitions.

Telling skiers to "pressure" the ball-of-foot often gets misinterpreted as "pressing" down with the ball-of-foot by opening up the ankle (plantarflexion). That's what a driver does when pressing on the gas pedal. This pushes the calf back towards the back of the cuff, which is problematic.

Telling skiers to "stand on" or "weight" the ball-of-foot often gets misinterpreted as lifting or lightening the heel. This pushes the shin towards the front of the cuff, which is not a problem. But the light/lifted heel loosens the tail of the ski from the snow and allows it to deflect without much control.

Getting performance out of the whole ski, shovel and tail, does not require either of these misunderstood ways of getting ball-of-foot pressure. But that doesn't mean ball-of-foot pressure is not good; it is.

If a skier bends forward at the ankles (dorsiflexion) so that the shins contact the fronts of the cuffs, if that skier hovers the body above those cuffs so its weight presses the shin downward into the cuffs, and if that skier plants the heels solidly and firmly onto the boot sole beneath, then the body's center of mass will be located somewhere in between those heels and the shins. The skier can move the CoM fore-aft between those two points, while keeping heels firmly planted and pressing into the fronts of the cuffs. Only a small range of motion is required to make these adjustments. Keeping the heels firmly planted keeps the tails from swishing out at the top of the turn and washing out downhill at the end. Maintaining shin-tongue pressure in the cuff keeps the shovels pressed into the snow (assuming skis with camber).

Doing these things certainly does not make the tips levitate. No one here is advocating an aft stance. The result of heel and shin-tongue pressure, both together, is whole-ski control and whole ski performance, and oh by the way ball-of-foot pressure.

When a skier feels pressure under the ball-of-foot, the snow is pushing back upward on the ski to cause that pressure. The skier tells the snow to target its pressure under the ball-of-foot (a good thing) by adjusting where body's mass is between the heel and the front of the cuff, those two contact points. But the skier is not pressing down on the ball-of-foot to get shovel pressure; the snow is pressing upward. Ball-of-foot pressure is a result, not a cause.

When a skier tips the outside ski onto its big toe edge by rolling the ankle to the inside, then the pressure of the snow pushing back upward on the ski will be targeted to the inside edge of the ski and boot. If that skier's weight is hovering far enough forward between the heel and the cuff, then there will be significant pressure felt under the shovel of the ski and under the 1st metatarsal (the big toe part of the ball-of-foot). But the skier is not "pushing down" on the 1st met. The skier is manipulating the snow's push-back to target it onto that particular point under the boot.

The skier can do this with the 5th met as well, pulling back on the inside foot and rolling that ankle to its little toe edge.

Well said

 

[Goose]

In another thread (or two) on slightly different topics I commented about when I made the (very late) switch from old long straights to new shaped not all that long ago. I found I had far too much forward/shin pressure and backing off of that a bit vs the old straight skis is what immediately helped a ton with just about all my skiing. The balance point had to shift a bit to adapt to shaped skis. The first day or two was terrible and once I learned the new balance point it was a revelation. So yes as mentioned in a post or two above there is such a thing as too much forward.

but I also think (and again something talked about in a different thread) there is different turn shapes which can be accomplished differently and on different steepness of slope. One usually more demanding . may be shorter, quicker, and on steeper slope where the lower body rotates while the upper basically stays down the fall line creating those bounce back forces. But also we can have the upper and lower body stay more inI line each other and with the skis, hence a wider carved turn and without or with much less rotational separation between upper and lower. Problem is that when on steeper slope this method usually means a lot more speed and can be too fast for the scenario. But point being that the balance point I think for the two different types of turning may be slightly in a different place on the skis plus also weight distribution is a bit different as for just a tad more or less on the uphill ski. Nor dictating and may not be so correct but is how I understand and feel it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There are so many things one can attend to while skiing.
Shin-tongue pressure. Heel pressure.
1st met pressure. Ball-of-foot pressure. Ankle tipping.
Inside foot. Outside foot. Long leg. Short leg.
Dorsiflexion. Shovel grip. Tail grip. Ski bend.
Inside half. Outside half.
Turn completion. Turn initiation. Symmetry of turns.
Rhythm. Pulse. Float. Traffic. Obstacles. Line.
Wind in the ears. Song in the head. Joy in the heart.

But honestly, I think most people are not good at paying attention to a number of things at
once, despite what this guy below seems to be doing. We have to make choices about
what's most important. If ball-of-foot is your thing, you have lots of company. But there are
other things to focus on to stay forward. We've covered a bunch of them in this thread.

If there's something NSFW on these monitors, I didn't mean it.