Men's new 193/30 ski compared to old women's 188/30

[Burton]

JTurner, that's a great question, and I'd love to hear people's take on that "magic bullet." In my mind, there's a combination of things going on: making as much of the turn before the apex, as opposed to making a late, J-turn (is that where you got your name?!) that is fighting gravity; making a turn shape that is a reducing comma, tightest at the start; and making the overall size of the turn small. Add in a strong move in the transition that gets the skis across the hill with light to no edging. Ultimately, "early release can't really mean "make less of a turn," cause everybody has to move their center of mass laterally more or less the same amount. I think it's more about where the turn gets started, it's shape, and when it ends. But I would love love a simple explanation of this.

 

[François Pugh]

Just because the ski is hanging onto the turn, doesn't mean the body has to hang onto the turn. In fact having the ski hang on and go across the hill while you go down the hill is a very good way to develop cross-under transitions.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Great description by BGreen that is very much in line with my own thoughts. Focusing particularly on GS one of the biggest mistakes I see with newer racers is that they keep increasing the pressure below the apex, basically hanging on to the turn and sinking deep into the chunder - and consequent ruts! - below the gate. They then need to really scramble to try to move to the new ski to start the turn for the next gate and, having lost time fighting gravity at the previous gate, lose more time being late for the next gate, skidding and dropping lower below the gate and having to further increase the pressure to come back across the hill. I think a lot of this comes from free-skiing where, as was mentioned previously, the turn is also used for speed control and, for most skiers, it feels really satisfying/exhilarating to feel that big pressure and g-force in the bottom half of the turn. But fast it is not! Can also be exacerbated when less experienced racers are using a smaller radius "cheater" ski in a proper GS course where they tend to "point and squirt" at the gate, get far too late with the apex and then have to stand on the ski and skid/fight gravity.

My simple approach - which may or may not concur with some of the technical purists! - but which I have found effective in helping my athletes to improve - is to think of the pressure distribution as increasing from the start of the turn, maxing at the apex and then easing off. Depending on the tightness of the set, slope etc, this pressure distribution may look like a spike or a semi-circle. It should also be accompanied by a focus on keeping the body in the fall-line and associated counter. As you reduce the pressure past the apex you are also starting the transition to the new ski, tyoically as you are approaching or just passing through the gate, depending on set and line. How quickly you make this move and how soon you apply the pressure to the new ski will be dependent on the set, distance across the hill, chosen line (tactics) etc and how strong the athlete is to potentially cut off the line while still maintaining speed. (Watch mens WC GS from last season when they moved to the 30m ski, quite a change in approach where they are basically making a much stronger, sharper and faster move and getting the ski in the fall-line as quickly as possible).

There is no silver bullet though. It does take confidence and self-belief to get off the ski and make that early move! It feels much "safer" to keep hanging on to that old turn with more pressure! However when you can persuade yourself to do it you also find that is not only quicker but smoother. Because you are releasing the pressure earlier you are not getting bounced around in the rut that is invariably formed just below the gate (as result of all that late pressure!!!) but instead are gliding over the crap, and not expending so much energy or getting bounced about. For me this is one of the areas where I have found the (women's) 30m ski to be really effective. It helps you look for a higher turn shape and it rides much more smoothly below the gate if you take this approach.

As i said, not necessarily a purist approach but i like to make things as simple as possible consistent with improving times, particularly important when you have a group of athletes in the age range 25-82!!!

 

[mdf]

Not directly race related, but I noticed something analogous in heavy mashed potatoes on steep slopes. Holding onto the bottom of the turn digs you into your own rut and makes it hard to start the transition.

 

[ski otter 2]

I'm just using the women's medium 188/30s (and before that 182/23s) recreationally, but what I seem to experience is different brands promote different styles/movements through the turns.The Volkl FIS 188/30 I have, for instance, favors a more rounded turn, which means slower transitions if I "go with the flow" - the things are still finishing their semi-circular carve at the end of the turn unless one intervenes, when a straight line is shorter and faster.

The Atomic 188/30s I have, on the other hand, naturally do something different - getting into the turn and up on the uphill ski early (so the big move/effort of the turn is really done with early), the Atomic skis easily "jam" or edge ride right out of that rounded carve at the bottom of the turn, before the big pressure build there, just cutting off that bottom, very smoothly, effortlessly. To me, it's as if the skis are guiding me to a cut off or smoother, straighter line at the bottom of the turn - just noticeably much faster than the roundish finish of the Volkls. In my case, more fun.

At Loveland one day last year, the DU ski team was practicing late in the season, many of them on Atomic FIS G9s. I went up the lift with a young man who was clearly the leader of that group, on his G9s, and we had a discussion about his skis. He said that the new year's skis he was on (presumably 17-18s, but that late in the season they could have been 18-19s, I guess) initiated earlier and easier, compared to the previous year's skis; and then he chuckled: "But they're still jammers, which is what I like!"

When I asked him about this, he confirmed that by "jammer" what he meant was the way the ski so naturally "jammed" out a straighter or even a stivot-like line at the bottom of the turn, so much straighter and faster.

Now with my inexperience, I could be missing something here, so I'm happy to hear differently. But for me, in that conversation, with what seemed to be the alpine leader of the #1 or #2 college team in the country, it was just fun to have my experience with those Atomics described as being a "jammer." (I've heard that the 188/30 Heads, in their own way, do something similar, but that's second hand, for me.)

 

[Swede]

As a sidenote to the line- and turnshape discussion, SL and GS is a bit different. Shiffrins superiority that was mentioned by @BGreen, was inmo most clear three or four seasons ago in SL. One of the guys who worked with Frida H did the pre season physics with my daughter's squad and talked about how they had studied MS technique closely and that she spent less time turning compared to the other girls. Technically superior, but also that she was incredibly fit and spending less time in the turn also meant saving energy/power (turning is more stress on muscles). Many times Frida was matching or close to Mikaela up until the second half, that's when Mikaela pulled away, really at the last 1/3, ending up with Stenmarkish margins. She then started to dabble with GS, which seemed to "mess up" her SL for a while -- meaning she didn't win by 2 seconds. Now it's history. Looking forward to Levi.

Edit. It was Scotskier who mentioned MS.