Men skiing women's FIS skis...Any change in mount point?

[Alexzn]

A related question to the race crowd here: How different are men and women real race skis (besides obviously length and sidecut dictated by FIS regulations)? I read that a lot of masters like to race on women FIS skis. Does the mounting point on those need to be adjusted backwards for male skiers?

 

[Tricia]

I bet @Primoz or @Muleski or @ScotsSkier or @Rudi Riet can answer that. Not sure if this thread is on their radar.

 

[Primoz]

Now it is @Tricia
As for @Alexzn question, mounting point is more or less personal preference of skier (at least when it comes to racing and people actually feel 1cm difference in this). I have been skiing women race skis way too little to be able to tell if mounting skis backwards would improve them and make them ski more like men skis, but I would still dare to say, at least for myself, there's no way any sort of mounting would bring those two skis closer together. Men and women skis are completely different thing. One is of course sidecut (length is not really that much of an issue here as few cm more or less doesn't change ski that much), but what really makes difference is construction of ski and how those skis behave (not just because of extra 5m radius at GS skis for example). Even stiffest women skis are relatively soft compared to softest men skis, and everything goes from there on. Women skis can be used for easy cruising around, while with men skis you need to work them hard if you really want to ski them properly. I guess that's basically main thing with this. You have to count that women race skis are made for women, who are, with no real statistics but just my guess, some 15-20cm smaller and 15+kg lighter then men on average, and no offense to anyone in this thread, women have A LOT less power to work the ski real way. All this mean, skis need to be really different to allow women to ski same way as men do. And while some people actually like this, I personally don't. I like men ski and how they ski, so that's why men 35m GS ski is my favorite ski (unless there's fresh powder around , and I was never feeling really comfortable on women GS skis, as they were simply too soft.
As for master races, I honestly don't know anything about this, as after I quit racing 15 years ago, I quit racing... any kind of racing But I would say using women ski on master races has something to do with shorter radius and softer skis. I don't know, but I would doubt master GS is based on men FIS standards. This means it's much harder to ski course clean way with 35m skis, so you pick softer skis with shorter radius, which, at least for now, women skis still are. Another thing is exactly that what I said I don't like with women skis... smaller stiffness. As no race is set to radius of ski (men GS could be set as low as 20m) you have two option to ski it. One, you skid, which of course you don't want to, or two, you bend ski more. Now if terrain is super steep and super icy, and your speed and power is big enough you can bend 35m ski to carve even 20m curve, but if terrain is not steep and hard enough, and you are not super powerful, you want softer ski to be able to bend it so much. End here's another reason why women skis might come handy. But as I wrote, I have no idea about master races so it could be another 100 reasons, why people prefer women skis there.

 

[Philpug]

And moved to it's own thread. Great topic.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Hmm yes! Just getting on a plane. Will follow up

 

[hbear]

I can't speak for all, but most men who use a Women's FIS ski for masters is due to them being easier to use in typical course sets. Smaller radius and easier to flex (but still beefy for mortals or lighter skiers) gives one additional forgiveness when we are off line (happens a bunch for us amateurs). I also look at it from the perspective that the ski doesn't have a clue what gender you are, so pick a construction that fits your body weight/strength and matches the course set. I'm 5'6" and 165lbs, not much bigger than most WC women (and smaller than a few speed skiers) and perhaps slightly heavier than the stronger ones. While I consider myself plenty strong and more than likely can out lift the ladies, I do find the Women's FIS skis to be a good match for my masters racing....much more so than the men. That being said I do gravitate to a "stiffer" GS ski for the women.

Others might have more insight into the mount point, I've played around with mine and typically mount on the line. Granted although I'm quick on the course, I'm FAR from an expert racer.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Ok, one of my favorite topics! As primoz has described well there are some significant differences in the men's and womens fis GS skis, much more than the radius (30 v 35) and length (188 v 195) would suggest!. In car terms it is a bit like comparing a 911 gt3 to a dodge charger hellfire. ( and this must be a first, relating the 911 to the womens version!) One is a more finely honed precision tool while the other can be just as fast but more of a muscle car, requiring different inputs and more manhandling. If you watch WC you will see the differences in technique and approach required between men and women. The men require a lot more power to drive the ski and you see a lot of stivots and inside ski stepping going on. With the women you see a much smoother arc and, while it was apparent in some of the early iterations of the 188/30, you see very little ski lifting now. I advise my athletes to watch the women to see how to improve.

I have a personal theory that @35m we have gone just beyond the sweet spot for men's GS and that has driven the change next year to 30m while the women also remain @30 m. Perhaps because 30ish is really the sweet spot for a real GS ski. Now also consider that in the previous generation of >27m. Most of the WC men were on a 191/193 31-32m ski. And with some of the lessons learned from the >35m ski such as early rise incorporated, I suspect we will see very similar dimensions next year.

Now in the current generation the men's ski, as primoz points out, is built much stiffer and takes a lot more power and muscling to make it come round. The women's fis ski though, has really benefitted from the R&D, proportionatelymore so than the men's version. The tip flex in particular is such that it can actually be bent into the turn much more easily, and with the small amount of tip rise they also all incorporate, they hook up and turn in waaay better than was initially thought from the nominal radius.

Now, for Masters skiers this becomes a huge plus. A masters GS will normally be set at a "proper" 23-30m, with good speed. It is NOT a nastar type set. So, with the women's FIS ski the flex is such that most of us, even old f&&arts like myself can actually bend the tip of the ski, without being able to bench press 500#!, rather than fight against the bigger 35m ski. And, while having a useable flex they still have great torsional rigidity = edgehold , and stability at speed . The other aspect I have identified is that, in the chop below the gate, they ride much better and make it easier to get that early switch rather than fighting the ruts. And while they are perfect for me at 165#, they seem to work equally well for guys @ 200#.

So, for me, and with my coaching and racer hat on,( and IMHO,) the women's FIS 188/30 is a great choice for any serious masters racer. And I have put my money where my mouth is in this case and have been racing successfully on them for the last 2seasons. Along the way I got a lot of flak from some coaches that I have a huge respect for, telling me I should be on a 23m or "masters" ski . However towards the end of last season, I started to see a few more masters ( apart from my mt rose guys) trying them out. And, funnily enough they were starting to see why I liked them... so this season I expect to see a lot more FW masters on them (damn, there goes my advantage!)

Wrt the mounting point, most of these skis have predrilled plates and I have normally set them maybe 1/4-1/2 inch ahead of mark which is where I like them (I am in a small boot, 285 Bsl) and keep coming back to that after some playing about so have not seen any need to move the plates. I reckon Tina and Michela have a lot more leg strength than me anyway!

So,back to my regular refrain - try the 30m skis, don't be afraid of the radius! If you are required to or good enough to use the 35m ski, you are at a level that you already get good coaching input ! And, look on the bright side, after this season you don't need to use them!

In full disclosure, I have not spent a lot of time on the 35mskis and I would not pretend to be as skilled, knowledgeable or strong skier as Primoz - who I have a huge respect for and am absolutely delighted to see him here at Pugski! - so I can well understand how he can use the 35 m ski more effectively for his purposes. I do however have a couple of pairs of 195/35m head RD GS to play about with this year so will update when I get the chance to use them. Will be interesting and I suspect I may like them for free skiing but not so much in gates! However, I will try to give some more informed views on them as, at the end of this season, there will be a LOT of them being dumped rREALLY cheap as the FIS regs change.....

 

[Primoz]

One totally unrelated thing though ScotsSkier... First women vs. men skiing style. In most cases, well pretty much every single race except Soelden, women race different hills then men. It's different hill and it's also different preparation. This is pretty hard to see on tv, but in reality things are a lot different. Men hills are steeper and in most cases much more icy then women. Even for Soelden, where women race same hill, they start on Saturday, when hill is icy, but not so much slipping was done, so in most cases it's still rather gripy, while after day of slipping and racing, hill is completely different thing. Also settings are normally a bit more tricky on men side, and all this brings to this what you wrote... that women ski nicer with more flow, while men with more power, with more stivoting and with one word, more ugly.
As I wrote, I don't have enough experience with women skis to be relevant, but with men skis there's light years difference between first 35m ski and today's GS skis. I had chance to ski few times on 35m (that time they were actually 40m as original rule was 40m) on the end of the winter when 27m skis were still used. And honestly, I was really worried what I will be using after that, as I have always been getting race skis and always enjoyed skiing GS skis the most, but those skis were simply unskiable... even for me free skiing, and I can't imagine how they looked for racers between the gates. They were simply old 27m skis made few cm longer and with 10+m bigger radius. Only 6 months later, few weeks before first race on 35m skis in Soelden, I was skiing first generation 35m skis and they were quite fine already. They changed models several times during that season already and every time skis were nicer to ski. Today, some 4 or 5 years later, I actually feel current Rossi skis are as easy to ski as 27m before, so development made huge steps forward. So anyone who was enjoying 27m skis before, can easy go with 35m this year.
But thing is, this needed to be developed this way anyway. Course setting is still about same as it was for 27m skis. Rules didn't change, so number of gates had to stay same, hills didn't get longer and higher, and on hills like for example Gran Risa in Alta Badia, there's simply no way to set course wider, as place is damn narrow and course was going net to net before already. So if you want to ski without much of stivoting/skidding with 35m ski same course as you did before with 27m skis, 35m skis need to be done completely different to allow you that. And I would say they managed to do this quite good.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Great points primoz. Totally agree! Despite all the complaints about the 30/35 skis when they were introduced it has proven to be worthwhile as it really accelerated development and brought a lot of improvements quickly. And yes, the 35m models have been through a LOT of iterations!

The change in line/ technique also applies to the 30m ski. I found that for me they helped me work on a better higher line that is faster than when I was cutting it off more on a 25m ski. It also rewards having the turn completed as you are at the gate and making an early switch to avoid the late turn ruts . In fact that is one of the key aspects I will be focusing on in my coaching this year,

 

[Monique]

even old f&&arts like myself can actually bend the tip of the ski, without being able to bench press 500#!

Just to be clear, bench pressing has almost zero to do with skiing. I suppose there's some sort of core strength argument to be made. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be enlightened.

Leg presses and squats, on the other hand .....

 

[cantunamunch]

Just to be clear, bench pressing has almost zero to do with skiing. I suppose there's some sort of core strength argument to be made. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be enlightened.

Leg presses and squats, on the other hand .....

He's not making a specific strength point. He's making a strength scaling point, of the "If my current body was scaled to be able to bench 500, can you imagine what I could do with my legs? " type.

 

[Monique]

He's not making a specific strength point. He's making a strength scaling point, of the "If my current body was scaled to be able to bench 500, can you imagine what I could do with my legs? " type.

To take what was no doubt an offhand jest and analyze it to the Nth degree (it's what I do!),

I doubt most male professional downhill skiers are benching 500. But more to the point, we're talking about male vs female strength, and it's pretty well established that while male strength tends to concentrate in the upper body, women tend to be strongest in the lower body. So talking about benching in the context of women's skis just seems particularly beside the point.

We've all seen the "skipping leg day" meme, right? Strengthening your upper body has zero to do with lower.

 

[Johnny V.]

Scots has piqued my interest in trying the 188/30 M skis, although they're WAY to big for our beer league sets and unless we get an open set on our Masters courses probably too big for them too (at least for this old man.)

 

[Tony S]

For people who don't have to worry about the effect their chromosomes have on what the FIS will allow them to ski, we can just say it has to do with how big you are and how strong you are. Right? To me - 5' 7", 130lbs - making it a male / female thing just muddies the waters.

 

[Tony S]

P.S., My women's FIS skis are mounted on the line and it's all good.

 

[Tony S]

P.P.S., In our beer league sets they are way easier @ >23m than the 14 - 18m cheaters I was on before, as promised by Scots long ago. I have not been on the 30m skis, but if I raced masters I'd be on them in a heartbeat.

 

[KevinF]

To take what was no doubt an offhand jest and analyze it to the Nth degree (it's what I do!),

I doubt most male professional downhill skiers are benching 500. But more to the point, we're talking about male vs female strength, and it's pretty well established that while male strength tends to concentrate in the upper body, women tend to be strongest in the lower body. So talking about benching in the context of women's skis just seems particularly beside the point.

We've all seen the "skipping leg day" meme, right? Strengthening your upper body has zero to do with lower.

From Lindsey Vonn's interview with Dan Patrick:

(link starts at the right time regarding her comments regarding bench presses).

 

[Monique]

From Lindsey Vonn's interview with Dan Patrick:

(link starts at the right time regarding her comments regarding bench presses).

Link starts at 0:00 - what's the time mark?

 

[cantunamunch]

To take what was no doubt an offhand jest and analyze it to the Nth degree (it's what I do!),
I doubt most male professional downhill skiers are benching 500. But more to the point, we're talking about male vs female strength, and it's pretty well established that while male strength tends to concentrate in the upper body, women tend to be strongest in the lower body. So talking about benching in the context of women's skis just seems particularly beside the point.

Uh, I don't understand your response here. Again, the figure of speech he employed is about scaling a skier's body (presumably with suitable leg conditioning) to the point where that body can bench 500. Sure, the 500 may be hyperbole but the point was clear - we are downscale relative to fitness but the tips of the womens' FIS skis are within our civilian strength scale.

So I really don't understand your point here. By analogy, if a VW Beetle was enlarged for the use of giants so the wheels are over our heads, but someone noticed that we normals could still work the stick shift, we shouldn't be objecting by saying that wheels have nothing to do with shifting.

 

[KevinF]

Link starts at 0:00 - what's the time mark?

Weird... 6:25.