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PhillyGuy

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I dunno. Telluride dropped MCP when it joined Epic.
Ikon came along too late in the year to be able to "encourage" key MCP resorts to go only with Ikon for this season, but next season will be a whole new ballgame.
I can imagine MCP losing Aspen, Snowbird, Jackson, SquAlpine.
Would that leave enough to make it viable as a business?
And would the remaining resorts quickly decide they'd be better off abandoning ship for the safe harbors of Epic/Ikon?
I'd hate to see that happen, but as a cold business decision it may be the right move.

I doubt that Aspen, Jackson Hole or the like would leave MCP.

It's not like the mountains are that crowded. There's plenty of capacity to have more skiers beyond what they currently have. They likely are not getting much, if any, money from either MCP or Ikon. Most of the revenue comes from destination skiers who come to the mountains as a result of it being on a pass.

I have no idea what I will get for 2019-20, but if it's not on my pass, I highly doubt I will make an effort to go. I organize a lot of trips for my friends, usually 4-12 people, ~ 6 trips a winter. That's a lot of potential revenue that they would lose by not being on a pass.
 

PhillyGuy

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I suspect the Costco play is just good introductory marketing for a product that is new this season. There are skiers out there who are just now hearing about the Ikon Pass and this is a second shot at what is basically still the introductory pass.

Costco is the perfect demographics for Ikon. There are many high end shoppers with big families, who trusts the Costco brand and products it sells. They are value-conscious, more so than cost conscious, which is exactly the selling point of Ikon. Costco already sells lift tickers to many of the mountains on Ikon, so it's not a surprise it was added.

However, Costco often sells a slightly different or value-added version of the product to avoid direct competition. Maybe that will happen next year.
 

Wilhelmson

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Amoung various questionable internet reports, Coscto shoppers have incomes over $125,000 and a large percentage of advanced degrees. Makes sense that succesfull people would have cash on hand and understand the value of paying up front to save money over the course of a year.
 

New2

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Thing is, we've been hearing a bunch about how Alterra/Ikon is not about competing head-to-head with Vail, but rather offering best-in-class experiences to those willing to pay a premium for such experiences. But the Boyne additions, the Ikon pass pricing, and the Costco deal all look like they are actually trying to compete head-to-head with Epic for the exact same skier population. Because those upper-middle-class Costco shoppers are exactly Vail's target demographic.
 

Jim McDonald

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HardDaysNight

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Thing is, we've been hearing a bunch about how Alterra/Ikon is not about competing head-to-head with Vail, but rather offering best-in-class experiences to those willing to pay a premium for such experiences. But the Boyne additions, the Ikon pass pricing, and the Costco deal all look like they are actually trying to compete head-to-head with Epic for the exact same skier population. Because those upper-middle-class Costco shoppers are exactly Vail's target demographic.

Yes, of course they’re competing head-to-head with Vail for the exact same skier population. That’s actually the only skier population that exists in any meaningful way. There’s no evidence that Ikon types are prepared to pay a premium over Epic buyers and, in fact, they’re not doing so.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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I doubt that Aspen, Jackson Hole or the like would leave MCP.

I sincerely doubt that the MCP will exist after this season. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Aspen the driving force behind the MCP in the first place? Now that they are partnered with Alterra, I suspect the MCP will cease to exist.
 

Goran M.

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Well, we are thought (conditioned) to believe that "competition" is a good thing for the consumer ...

Or is this just a case of "duopoly" in the making ? I guess "duo" is better than "mono" but ...

Airbus/Boeing
Apple/Microsoft
Vail/Alterra
Republicans/Democrats
Visa/MasterCard

...

Seriously, the real competition is in the cereal isle at your grocery store ... Hundreds of choices and so many "weekly" specials ... Healthy, non GMO modified, natural, sugar free, curated, celebrity endorsed and so on ... Or soda drinks, now Pepsi and Coca Cola are having run for their money ! How about "fast food" ? Hundreds of them ...

Ski business ... those guys are just fine as long as they are having sweet deals "leasing" national forest lands in perpetuity for very little money while trying to promote and curate this "experience" .
 

dbostedo

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Well, we are thought (conditioned) to believe that "competition" is a good thing for the consumer ...

Or is this just a case of "duopoly" in the making ? I guess "duo" is better than "mono" but ...

Airbus/Boeing
Apple/Microsoft
Vail/Alterra
Republicans/Democrats
Visa/MasterCard

...

Seriously, the real competition is in the cereal isle at your grocery store ... Hundreds of choices and so many "weekly" specials ... Healthy, non GMO modified, natural, sugar free, curated, celebrity endorsed and so on ... Or soda drinks, now Pepsi and Coca Cola are having run for their money ! How about "fast food" ? Hundreds of them ...

Ski business ... those guys are just fine as long as they are having sweet deals "leasing" national forest lands in perpetuity for very little money while trying to promote and curate this "experience" .

Yeah - a real duopoly (at least for the major resorts) is a real concern... they can collude through watching each other closely, without really colluding in any legal sense. When people say competition is good, it's true - but it usually assumes low barriers of entry, and open competition.

And there are others competing and making in-roads in some cases for a few of the ones you mentioned (Linux machines for Apple/MS, Embraer for Boeing/Airbus, AmEx and Discover for Visa/MasterCard). Those tend to exist a bit in niches though, so you could have someone outside of Alterra focusing on niches, or unique experiences that keeps things interesting, even if Vail and Alterra continue to grow. What's the biggest ski company that's NOT part of Vail or Alterra now?
 

PhillyGuy

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I sincerely doubt that the MCP will exist after this season. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Aspen the driving force behind the MCP in the first place? Now that they are partnered with Alterra, I suspect the MCP will cease to exist.

Yes Aspen was the driving force behind MCP to compete against Vail. That's really the main driving force behind Alterra too.

However, the real goal of either MCP and Ikon is to keep those independent (and non- Vail) resorts in business. Unless Ikon offers a light option of 2-3 days at each resort at the MCP price point, they are really not competing with each other.

In fact, I would argue having a 2-3 day option with MCP and a 5-7 day option with Ikon is the best thing for these independent resorts (like Alta, Jackson Hole, and Aspen). This covers occasional skiers (MCP) and serious ski enthusiasts (Ikon), without cannibalizing the local season pass sales.

Assuming the Ikon pass offerings (5 and 7 days) are the same next year, if these resorts are no longer on the MCP, it takes away the reason for an occasional skier to choose Aspen over Vail, Park City over Snowbird, Banff over Whistler, Squaw over Heavenly, and Sugarbush over Stowe.
 

coskigirl

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Yes Aspen was the driving force behind MCP to compete against Vail. That's really the main driving force behind Alterra too.

However, the real goal of either MCP and Ikon is to keep those independent (and non- Vail) resorts in business. Unless Ikon offers a light option of 2-3 days at each resort at the MCP price point, they are really not competing with each other.

In fact, I would argue having a 2-3 day option with MCP and a 5-7 day option with Ikon is the best thing for these independent resorts (like Alta, Jackson Hole, and Aspen). This covers occasional skiers (MCP) and serious ski enthusiasts (Ikon), without cannibalizing the local season pass sales.

Assuming the Ikon pass offerings (5 and 7 days) are the same next year, if these resorts are no longer on the MCP, it takes away the reason for an occasional skier to choose Aspen over Vail, Park City over Snowbird, Banff over Whistler, Squaw over Heavenly, and Sugarbush over Stowe.

Sure, there will always be a market of people where 2-3 days at each resort is a good value but the problem for MCP will be the number of skiers that no longer need it because of the Ikon Pass. For me it replaced the Rocky Mountain Super Pass+ and the MCP and I get better options all but 1 resort that matters to me and even that isn't likely an issue since my mom no longer lives there. Even the Ikon full pass would have been a money saver (with even better options) over the RMSP+ and MCP combined. If too many people are like me then MCP will struggle. It's hard to say at this point how many people that is.
 

Jully

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Sure, there will always be a market of people where 2-3 days at each resort is a good value but the problem for MCP will be the number of skiers that no longer need it because of the Ikon Pass. For me it replaced the Rocky Mountain Super Pass+ and the MCP and I get better options all but 1 resort that matters to me and even that isn't likely an issue since my mom no longer lives there. Even the Ikon full pass would have been a money saver (with even better options) over the RMSP+ and MCP combined. If too many people are like me then MCP will struggle. It's hard to say at this point how many people that is.

This. I knew a bunch of people who took the MCP and went for a week to Aspen, Squaw, etc. Now Ikon covers those people.
 

New2

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However, the real goal of either MCP and Ikon is to keep those independent (and non- Vail) resorts in business. Unless Ikon offers a light option of 2-3 days at each resort at the MCP price point, they are really not competing with each other.

:roflmao: Whatever they may be telling people, helping their competitors is not Alterra's real goal. But as long as you're drinking that Kool-Aid, why not also recognize how generous Vail is in helping out poor struggling Telluride with a partnership?
 
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Ikon just added unlimited access to Crystal Mountain! The hits keep coming.....
 

PhillyGuy

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:roflmao: Whatever they may be telling people, helping their competitors is not Alterra's real goal. But as long as you're drinking that Kool-Aid, why not also recognize how generous Vail is in helping out poor struggling Telluride with a partnership?

Well, the difference is that Ikon does not own the flagship resorts like Altabird, Jackson, and Aspen. So while these resorts benefit from being on Ikon, they are also a major reason for people to get the Ikon pass.

Ikon pass would be like the Max pass without these resorts (well a bit better with the addition of Squaw and Mammoth). Great for skiers who want a lot of days, but you are missing the the ikonic resorts that occasional skiers and their friends would want to visit.

I still think it's a win win proposition. The cost to administer MCP is prob pretty low, esp since most of these resorts are on Ikon now, they have the infrastructure in place.

This could change if Alterra would to impose an exclusivity clause. Then the resorts would have to decide whether to maintain MCP or Ikon. If Altabird, Jackson, and Aspen were to leave Ikon, I still think MCP (together with Sunvalley, Snowbasin, Banff, and Sugarbush), would be a strong contender against either Ikon or Epic.

And Alterra can't afford to lose these partners because the alternative is for them to partner with Vail. So that's why I don't think Alterra will try to upset this balance.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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If Altabird, Jackson, and Aspen were to leave Ikon, I still think MCP (together with Sunvalley, Snowbasin, Banff, and Sugarbush), would be a strong contender against either Ikon or Epic.

And Alterra can't afford to lose these partners because the alternative is for them to partner with Vail. So that's why I don't think Alterra will try to upset this balance.

Good point. But, I do think that both Steamboat and Tremblant are flagship resorts along with Squaw and Mammoth. I absolutely believe that Alterra is playing 'keep away" from Vail. Vail is a threat for sure. Mammoth Resorts bought both June Mountain and Big Bear Mountain Resorts so that Vail couldn't. They didn't want them. Alterra probably doesn't either, but it can't afford for Vail to get a foot in the door in Southern California or the whole LA Basic, San Diego, Inland Empire, Palm Springs, etc. is up for grabs. Whether there will be a different guest experience or not, we shall see. In the meantime, Alterra seems to be buying strategically in every market where Vail is planted and partnering with flagship resorts is brilliant.
 

David Chaus

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We are doing a whole lot of prognosticating and maybe overthinking a lot of this.

Alterra has started quickly (remember it was only in early January when the news of its formation first came out) and has ramped up amazingly fast. It is astonishing the number of resorts added to the Ikon pass(es) in about 9 months. I took Vail, what, 10 years to get to a similar portfolio on the Epic pass? This coming season will still only be the first season for the Ikon passes. Future acquisitions, and maybe some unloading of resorts, may happen as a result of the skier visits and associated business that is generated this coming season, or two or three. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see some affiliated destinations switching from Epic to Ikon, and maybe vice-versa.
 

Muleski

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This^^^^^.

It is just beginning. It's a multi year plan. Alterra is being built to increase in value, and for KSL{and their investors in this fund} along with the Crowns to benefit from the ultimate liquidity event. Timing, TBD. Five years? Seven? But Alterra will continue on at that point. Perhaps as a pubic entity. The number of changes, deals, acquisitions, sales that may occur over that intervening time period is "considerable."

I have suggested before, as hard as it may be, to try to separate Alterra's longer term strategy to create value, from the current Ikon pass. They are different things. I would also suggest that we think about the fact that a lot of experimentation, research, data gathering etc. is going on with this brand new company, and that their leadership and management teams are just starting to gel and figure out how how to operate in their new environment.

Ikon is important, but the value isn't going to come from pass sales. I realize that many feel like this is Vail 2.0, all about pass sales. MTN leads and closes every single interaction with Wall St analysts by talking about the growth in Epic sales. Every deal is geared to drive up that number. The analysts buy it, and MTN's market cap keeps increasing. Good stuff. It's to Atterra's advantage to have MTN continue to prosper. I'll leave it at that.

All so very, very new. It's very easy to jump to conclusions and throw darts, and forget the timeline. I happen to believe that they will get it right. I happen to believe that there are many more acquisitions on the way over the next few years. Many. Big. Names.

The acquisition of Crystal is interesting. Forget any strategy, etc. John Kircher bought it in April 2017. He separated from his brother, and Boyne, in doing so. I have heard it mentioned, dozens of times that "John Kircher will NEVER sell Crystal." Yet, he did. many feel that he was presented with a compelling offer that he and his wife could not ignore. Others feel that he sees a real sea change in the industry, and felt that he had to make the move. His deal is a simple one. Not a giant, not a huge amount of complex real estate, no partners. It might well be that Alterra is active right now on a number of other deals that are much more complex. Bigger. Perhaps.Deals that take longer to get done.

Their vision does not play out unless they are working that way. And they have a huge number of very, very serious and demanding investors who have invested with KSL to fund this. These are not people who buy a few shares of stock. It's pension funds to family offices. Average investment is, also, "considerable." Think eight figures, or more. And that group is not stupid. That have more than just a hunch in this plan.

It's very early......Good point by @David Chaus. Lots could develop, including looking just like Vail and falling flat on their collective faces. We'll see.

Making assumptions about next year's Ikon pass? I think that's a bit premature.
 
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David Chaus

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As I recall, people have been observing for years that KSL was sitting on a pile of money and wondering what they were going to do with it. Maybe now it’s becoming more clear.
 

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