Maybe the 1st carving instructional video?

[geepers]

Is this claim true?

Title: Magic of the Turn - the very first carving skiing instructional video from 1998/99
Youtube poster's comment:

Maybe the very first comprehensive curriculum about how to learn carving skiing. It was prepared by László Szabó in 1998/99. He had a workshop with this topic at the Interski Congress in Beitolstolen, 1999.​

 

[LiquidFeet]

That was sure fun to watch on Easter morning.
They made the progression from wedge turns to carved turns with pencil-thin tracks look easy. Huh.
I found it interesting how much time they devote to using upper body rotation and to leaning in. Seems like they were exploring everything they could think of to get the skis to turn. Most transitions were done low, until the very end.
I didn't notice there weren't any poles until there were ... again, at the very end.
@karlo, I think there were some Classic Short Swing turns in this video.

 

[JESinstr]

Quite the interesting Video.
As it shows, carving is a process of implementing the ski's "inertia bending" design and does not need to exhibit a certain pattern in the snow until you declare someone is carving. It is the result of the ski's progressive interaction with the surface.

Observations:

• So we now know that it's OK to be teaching the bio mechanics of carving right from the get go.
• Any redirection of the ski is focused out through center of the foot and not the heel (natural tendency) although there were a number of demos that made that hard to see.
• Separation at the hip joint is key as is Independent leg action.
• Lots of contradiction and inconsistency between the attempt to instill their preferred technique of upper body inclination. Inclination and upper body rotary induced by the steering wheel prop and arm tipping drills often disappeared when they put on poles and/or focused on other things like short radius ski performance.
• And that upper body arm swinging..my god! If you really looked closely what you saw were highly skilled skiers with the discipline to keep their upper body stable as they swung their arms around. Not a good image for wanna bees.
• At 6:30 they do a "Winged Squadron" run and they exhibit moments of instability as a result of excessive upper body inclination IMO.

In the end, Yes Virginia, you can teach the basics of carving to a wedge beginner. Ironically , I will submit that it might be harder to get a plateaued intermediate to revert to the wedge!

 

[mdf]

Ironically , I will submit that it might be harder to get a plateaued intermediate to revert to the wedge!

My instructor last year had us do the first 10 or 20 turns of the first run of each day in a [PSIA-approved gliding] wedge. The theory was ... well, I guess I never really understood, but I gamely tried it.
It took me about 3 days to manage decent wedge turns. It was hard!

 

[JESinstr]

My instructor last year had us do the first 10 or 20 turns of the first run of each day in a [PSIA-approved gliding] wedge. The theory was ... well, I guess I never really understood, but I gamely tried it.
It took me about 3 days to manage decent wedge turns. It was hard!

Hmmm. So could it be that it is so natural and easy to accomplish a redirection of the skis by pushing the heels and ignoring the hip socket by invoking a twisting of the pelvis (potentially continuing to the upper body), that we continue to deeply embed this fundamental movement flaw as we continue to add mileage and gain experience?

Is this why, when we ask intermediates and some "advanced" skiers to execute some dynamic or even tactical wedge maneuvers (like the gliding wedge or wedge short swings) they have difficulty? Only when we change the way we redirect to a through-the-middle of the foot and femur/hip socket ONLY movement pattern, will much that follows, fall in place IMO.

Notice I didn't use the word rotary?

 

[mdf]

I think that because it was so long ago that I last did wedges, I never learned to do "proper" modern wedges. So it was a new movement pattern. Hard to shift weight to the new ski without also edging it.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

That was sure fun to watch on Easter morning.
They made the progression from wedge turns to carved turns with pencil-thin tracks look easy. Huh.
I found it interesting how much time they devote to using upper body rotation and to leaning in. Seems like they were exploring everything they could think of to get the skis to turn. Most transitions were done low, until the very end.
I didn't notice there weren't any poles until there were ... again, at the very end.
@karlo, I think there were some Classic Short Swing turns in this video.

There was pole use in the middle, LF, as well as in the end. Note reliance on inside knee moving into the turn. The "classic" short swing did not have much carving

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Kneale Brownson, I missed the poles in the middle. Don't want to rewatch it though. Were those last super short turns wedelns or short swings?

 

[nSkier]

I like the use of flex-to-release starting at 9:30. Not too dissimilar to the power release exercise. Obviously very early stages of modern carving plus equipment limitations, but they had some right ideas.

 

[Tony Storaro]

9:35

I knew I've been doing it right the whole time!

 

[Kneale Brownson]

@Kneale Brownson, I missed the poles in the middle. Don't want to rewatch it though. Were those last super short turns wedelns or short swings?

Poles were used in the middle not for pole touches but for exercises trying to stabilize the upper body.

I would call the short turns more heel-throw wedelns. True wedelns would not include the lifting of the tails off the snow, according to my memory of what the Austrians taught me more than 50 years ago.

 

[geepers]

There's an extra comment by the youtube poster...

You know in the late '90s and after in the next 3-4 years, nobody had a clue what to do with this skis. Only a few ski instructors had carving ski, 99% was unable to use them. In the ski schools was only traditional skiing, some "rebels" tried to teach some movements for advanced skiers. Mostly in the official positions, the carving was a small piece of skiing, which can be learned when somebody is enough good in parallel turns. But there was no idea how, and especially no methodology. Maybe this was the very first comprehensive systematic method to teach carving for beginners. This video is an important stage in the history of the carving skiing. I pretty sure that this is the very first instructional material. ​

​

There's a big gap in my lesson taking between 1985 and 2005 when I didn't take lessons. Do folk who were active in instructing - either as instructors or students - during the transition to carved skis remember when drills like rail road tracks became a thing?

 

[James]

There's an extra comment by the youtube poster...

You know in the late '90s and after in the next 3-4 years, nobody had a clue what to do with this skis. Only a few ski instructors had carving ski, 99% was unable to use them. In the ski schools was only traditional skiing, some "rebels" tried to teach some movements for advanced skiers. Mostly in the official positions, the carving was a small piece of skiing, which can be learned when somebody is enough good in parallel turns. But there was no idea how, and especially no methodology. Maybe this was the very first comprehensive systematic method to teach carving for beginners. This video is an important stage in the history of the carving skiing. I pretty sure that this is the very first instructional material. ​

​

There's a big gap in my lesson taking between 1985 and 2005 when I didn't take lessons. Do folk who were active in instructing - either as instructors or students - during the transition to carved skis remember when drills like rail road tracks became a thing?

Well Warren Witherell’s book from 1992. It’s all about carving. Railroad tracks etc. Straight skis! In general though, no, not beginners and carving. Still don’t. You need space for one thing.

Who was the guy with the carving program that had the Gorilla Turn? That was early. Something Hobart I think. I have his book somewhere.
Lito Tejada Flores is mid 90’s. Not really a beginner progression though as I recall.
The unmentionable guy was 1998.

None started with stemming though afaik. Pretty antithetical.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I guess these guys had no idea that pushing the tail out to an edge would become a major no-no.

However, I'd expect them to know that using the upper body as a rotating mass to start the turn would be problematic if taught directly.

What were the problems intermediates had back in the straight ski days? Today the big ones are upper body rotation, leaning in, skiing aft, and pushing the tail out to an edge. I see all four of those being used intentionally in this video. Maybe they didn't have experience with them as problems on straight skis. I have no idea as I wasn't skiing back then.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

However, I'd expect them to know that using the upper body as a rotating mass to start the turn would be problematic if taught directly.

What were the problems intermediates had back in the straight ski days?

The biggies were lack of simultanious ski movement, upper body stability, lack of angulation, lack of ankle involvement.

I skied with two Swiss guys in the mid 1960s after having skied for several seasons with French folks. Their take on the French serpent turn was that instead of a stable anticipated upper body, they started square to the skis and, as the edge set was released, made a huge upper body rotation as the skis started changing direction.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Kneale Brownson, the 60s/70s must have been an exciting time for dedicated recreational skiers. People were paying attention to differing approaches to how turns could be made.

In my experience, today most enthusiastic recreational skiers don't really care.

 

[James]

You know in the late '90s and after in the next 3-4 years, nobody had a clue what to do with this skis. Only a few ski instructors had carving ski, 99% was unable to use them. I

Maybe true in Eastern Europe. Though Elan is in Slovenia. Our ski school had Elan psx short carving skis. In 3 lengths, 113, 123, 133, though that progression was never really used. We just used the 123’s iirc. That was probably year 2000. The 99/00 year was a sea of orange Volkl P30’s, the last iteration, and best, of the P30’s. I’d say that was the last year you saw gs skis, or slalom, dominate as the choice of most good skiers. After that the alternative choices, which had been there a few years, dominated.

The video is really advanced skiers learning carving. Almost no beginner is going to go from a heel pushing wedge carve to both shins parallel and working simultaneously in a carve. There’s exceptions maybe for athletic hockey players or rollerbladers.
Witherell had all sorts of excercises with a one ski carve. We used to do flying wedges just carving on the outside ski. But that’s not intermediate/advanced.

The fundamentals in the video, pushing the outside ski, full body rotation, are all considered negative movements. Ironically, they kind of teach separation by going straight and pushing the outside ski out. Then it all goes away with the body rotating.

 

[JESinstr]

I like the use of flex-to-release starting at 9:30. Not too dissimilar to the power release exercise. Obviously very early stages of modern carving plus equipment limitations, but they had some right ideas.

How do you define that as Flex to release? At the bottom the each turn she is eating her inside leg's kneecap. How can she flex out of that? Try 8:50

 

[JESinstr]

Maybe true in Eastern Europe. Though Elan is in Slovenia. Our ski school had Elan psx short carving skis. In 3 lengths, 113, 123, 133, though that progression was never really used. We just used the 123’s iirc. That was probably year 2000. The 99/00 year was a sea of orange Volkl P30’s, the last iteration, and best, of the P30’s. I’d say that was the last year you saw gs skis, or slalom, dominate as the choice of most good skiers. After that the alternative choices, which had been there a few years, dominated.

The video is really advanced skiers learning carving. Almost no beginner is going to go from a heel pushing wedge carve to both shins parallel and working simultaneously in a carve. There’s exceptions maybe for athletic hockey players or rollerbladers.
Witherell had all sorts of excercises with a one ski carve. We used to do flying wedges just carving on the outside ski. But that’s not intermediate/advanced.

The fundamentals in the video, pushing the outside ski, full body rotation, are all considered negative movements. Ironically, they kind of teach separation by going straight and pushing the outside ski out. Then it all goes away with the body rotating.

James, Not withstanding most of what you wrote, In the first 30 seconds + of the video, although we can argue the semantics of "pushing", I interpret the movements they are making, as redirection to a strong leg and edge all done from the hip socket down. The pressure that is generated during this action is supported by the alignment of the COM with balance to the Center of the ski as the objective. In redirection from the heels, the objective is to get the ski broadside to a "checking" action with the inertial forces. IMO

No matter what, there are a lot of wild and crazy things being shown throughout the video and as @LiquidFeet eluded to, they were doing a lot of exploration and testing the limits of the skills envelope.

 

[slowrider]

@Kneale Brownson,

In my experience, today most enthusiastic recreational skiers don't really care.

Sounds like most of my ski friends. Except SS.