[maintenance tuning] Keeping the edges sharp in-between tune ups?

[Doug Briggs]

Yea, the screw on clamp on the SVST beveler came off in a flash and has never been reinstalled.

Diamond stones are plastic and embeded with diamonds. Files are pieces of steel that have been cut to shape with teeth. Both come in a variety of coarseness. Diamond stones are used to maintain an edge after the edge has been set to the desired bevel with a file. Files remove much more material than a diamond stone. Unless you need to change your bevel or fix a serious gouge in the edge, you won't need files.

One thing that I believe has been overlooked is the need to practice on skis that ARE NOT IMPORTANT. It is not difficult to ruin a ski by attempting to file it and use the file or guide incorrectly. Practicing on a throw away ski is the best way to try out new tools, techniques and methods.

You don't want to push hard on the guide and file/stone, either. Let the tools do the work by being clean and sharp. Repeated passes will take down the necessary material in a predictable and efficient manner.

Use a file/stone until it feels as though it is doing little or no work. Then change to a finer tool until you run out of finer tools. This allows the correct tool to be doing the work. You can't make a fine edge with a file, but you can define the bevel with one. You can't set a bevel with a stone but you can make it finer with one.

 

[otto]

Best clamp ever made. Makes your hand tool strong and powerful... Props to Dave Peszak

 

[KevinF]

Ok, here's a question to throw into the mix... I've seen some videos, etc. that say you're supposed to clamp both ends of the file / stone in the side-edge guide, as that provides more consistency then the one-clamp-and-your-thumb method. That's what I've always done... seems to work. My edges stay sharp, etc.

Is there any practical difference between "two clamps" vs. "one clamp and your thumb"?

 

[Doug Briggs]

@otto , Nice clamp, but why do you feel the need for such a strong one? The pressure applied to the tool and guide should be pretty small.

 

[Doug Briggs]

@KevinF , By definition, a coarse side of your tool (file/stone) is against the guide and providing friction. A single strongish spring clamp will hold the tool in place if proper pressure is applied to the guide and tool. If you apply enough pressure to move the tool in the guide, you have too much pressure.

In a production environment, one less clamp to deal with to change tools saves time, too. Of course there are those that will have a guide and a clamp for each tool they could use in a session so changing tools becomes a non-issue.

While I enjoy dispensing knowledge and clearly people have the questions, I would like to remind people of KISS. Keep It Simple, Skier. More complication in the process generally adds to the opportunity for error. We are tuning recreations skis and a pretty sharp, nicely set bevel is all we need to achieve. Pick a bevel, set it, maintain it.

 

[Mendieta]

One thing that I believe has been overlooked is the need to practice on skis that ARE NOT IMPORTANT. It is not difficult to ruin a ski by attempting to file it and use the file or guide incorrectly. Practicing on a throw away ski is the best way to try out new tools, techniques and methods.

Thank you for clarifying that, Doug! And thank you for that word of caution. I think I will start with simple base touch ups, and then side maintenance with the diamond stone. Hopefully, by the time I graduate to files, I will know how to use this whole machinery, and/or have a disposable ski. This also reinforces my plan on staying a bit more with the 1/2 tune on mine, and move to 1/3 with the help of a shop (since I would do it to the most expensive skis in the house, the head rallies)

 

[James]

Ok, question now: is there any difference between a "diamond stone" and a "file"? I thought the latter was for setting a new edge angle, basically, major surgery, and the former for maintenance, i.e. polishing, sharpening at the existing angle, etc. But I maybe I'm wrong?

If you're asking is there any difference between a "diamond stone" and a "diamond file" - in the ski tuning world, thise terms are sometimes used interchangeably. Generally though, "diamond stone" is the term used.

Otherwise, a "file" and a "diamond stone" are not used for the same things. But a file is not used for "major surgery", but to sharpen an edge. A stone is used for touching up, or after a file. You need a file to sharpen skis.

A very rough file, a panzar file,( also known as a body file (for filing Bondo), is used for a lot of metal removal. Like if you were going from a 1deg side angle to a 2 or 3. If you're brand new at this try that first on an old ski you don't care about. Or have the shop do it.

Major surgery, eek, is done at a hospital. Aka the ski shop. (See " Not a secret #4" below)


The diamond stone's most important use for ski tuners though is to cut through a burr from a rock. New tuners don't believe this, but the heat generated from hitting a rock will (usually) case harden the metal in that spot. It will be harder than a file. The file won't cut it, it will skip and make a weird noise. It can also damage the file. You have to cut through it with the diamond stone first. It doesn't take much.

(I believe you could probably do it with silicon carbide sandpaper wrapped around a file, but that's past my memory retrieval right now)

Also, sometimes new skis have hard spots that need to be cut with a diamond stone.

Diamond stones aren't really for sharpening per se. You could, but it would take forever and you would probably wear the stone out in one pair of skis. You need a file to sharpen.

So, unless one is lolly gagging around (not this year) Utah, or Colorado apparently, powder all the time, you need a file. Doug is a very good skier who can intuitively adapt to a skipping edge. His lolly gagging on hard snow is not like those asking these questions. I'm quite sure if he came back east he'd be at a 3 side by day #2. His slaloms might even go to a 0.5 base/4 deg side.

Personally, I like to drift sideways a lot and ski moguls and do the half pipe with my slalom skis. So I go for a 0.75 deg base bevel.

Base bevel determines the character of a ski. How quickly it engages. A 1 deg base is perfectly fine for most. You do not want more for general groomed skiing. The issue is more like is it really a 1 and not 2+. Several years ago some Head skis were like 2-5 deg new. Total crap. They had to be ground.

Not a secret #1:
Just about every race ski gets ground and angles set even when new. Meaning after one buys it. (Wait, really? It's new! -yes) I say "just about" anyone, but anyone who's any good and over 10 yrs old will do this.
Recreational skis often need this also.

Not a secret #2:
( Really this is wtf?, or "Has the whole world gone crazy?? Am I the only one who gives a shi*...?" (The Big Lebowski)

Not every place does a good grind/ setting of base bevel. Those big machines you see cost $250k to nearly $500k dollars. You'd think that anyone could operate them. From a phone. Sadly, this is not the case. I'd rather have someone who knows what they're doing on an old "cheap" machine (new car price) than a new fancy robotic one. Everyone in the Northeast who knew is seriously depressed over the tuning shop Edgewise in Stowe closing. It was the reliable place. Skis that got screwed up by another shop I'd just take there for a regrind. Not even bother for a redo, just should have driven the 2 hrs each way in the beginning.
Even back when Graham had a very small stone grinder. In nearly a dozen years I never had a bad grind. That is amazing.

Not a secret # 3:
(Despite # 2)
The only people who really care about tuning are racers, those who tune for racers, race coaches, those who own a race ski, or nut jobs on ski sites. Despite this affecting all skiers.

The common theme here is race. If you want a good tune, your best bet is to go where the racers go, and not during a holiday when they're swamped.

Not a secret # 4:
You can't replace the metal the rock took off. Once it's gone, it's gone. It's not ptex. All you can do is level off the peaks of the metal back to the existing edge. If it's not too deep filing will even it out. If it doesn't you've got a valley there. No sense removing all the edge just to clean it up. C'est la vie.

It's rare, but sometimes people will patch in a section of edge. Unless a shop is doing you a favor, this will cost a lot of money.

Not a secret #5:
Rails are the anti christ to tuning. A "park tune" varies, but basically there's only sharp edges at tip and tail. Underfoot sharp = not good. I suppose one could put a large base bevel underfoot and still have some sharpness. I don't know. Some just take a file at 45 deg and hack the edge.
If you or your child are going to do rails, get separate skis for it. There's no recovery.

 

[mdf]

Best clamp ever made. Makes your hand tool strong and powerful... Props to Dave Peszak

View attachment 36363

I forgot about those. I tried to buy one once but they were out of stock. I've seen machinists use clamps that look similar.

I just use spring clamps, and they work pretty well. But get small, strong ones. Originally I was using a large one I happened to have and it was awkward. I picked up the ones I use now in Harbor Freight for something like $1.50 apiece.

 

[James]

Best clamp ever made. Makes your hand tool strong and powerful... Props to Dave Peszak

View attachment 36363

They should make it with a round knob handle. One can add a plastic handle cover they make though. I'm going to have to try this clamp.
Handle Cover:

http://clampmfg.com/kant-twist/

 

[Sibhusky]

The only place I see with the rubber footing on one arm and not on the other is Start Haus?

 

[Mendieta]

I am compiling a shopping list. These strike me as a great value if they are any good (set of 3 for 40 bucks - RaceWax Hard Aluminum Racing Side Bevel Angle File Guide). Has anyone tried them? Thanks!!

 

[ScotsSkier]

I will disagree with @Doug Briggs on no need for a 3 degree in the west,. As I noted earlier, all but my slalom skis (which are at 4) are at 3, including my powder skis! No downside in my experience.

But agree with Doug on KISS. use the fixed guide and if you really must have 2 different side angles, get another guide rather than a shim. Spring clamps are around a buck at harbor Freight. I do have that metal bar that screws on to the file guide to hold a file or stone but haven't used it for 10 years!! Too time consuming and restricts the ability to change the angel of the file or stone on the guide too much. Use 2 spring clamps to start if you feel you must. For files I am a big fan of the Swix 8 inch file

• T106X 8 inch Second Cut: 8”/20 cm. 16 tpcm. Side beveling, base beveling set up before diamond work.

http://www.racewax.com/swix-professional-chrome-ski-edge-file/

This is basically the only file I use for the edges, after that I go to the 200 grit moon flex stone (or I shorten the process buy just using the grinder!) I also have th 6 inch Swix file (T104X) for setting base bevel if required. I have found the Swix ones to last really well, I have 2 on my bench, one is 14 y/O and the other is about 8 y/o and still going strong (and my bench sees a lot of skis going across it!!)

and @Mendieta . If you want a ski to practice on, shoot me a PM. Lots of scrap ones here that you can have to learn on!

 

[ScotsSkier]

I am compiling a shopping list. These strike me as a great value if they are any good (set of 3 for 40 bucks - RaceWax Hard Aluminum Racing Side Bevel Angle File Guide). Has anyone tried them? Thanks!!

i have one of these, branded Swix. They are OK but not my favorite, I prefer the solid ones as i find these with the slot in them a little more fiddly to position the clamp. Most of mine are like this, or a variant thereof

http://www.artechski.com/artech-side-edge-file-guides/

And although i also have a couple of stainless steel ones I normally grab the ally ones first! Or more usually I will have several of the same angel sets up so I am not changing out the file/stone for each edge

 

[razie]

keep the edges sharp between tune-ups?

carve more !

 

[Rich McP]

What do you experts think of this tool as opposed to the set angle ones that require a clamp?
https://www.skis.com/Swix-Phantom-Edge-File-Holder/247186P,default,pd.html

I'm gonna pile on here.

Not only no, but HELL NO!!!!

The only thing you can guarantee with an adjustable tool is that it is adjusted wrong. A good quality tool is the "least expensive" tool you can buy. And by that, of course, I mean TCO rather than initial cost. Buy good tools and you will never regret it. An adjustable tool is rarely a "good" tool. And a Swiss Army Knife is a bad knife.

You can add Moonflex to the list of "good" tools that are worth the money.

/rant

 

[Jacques]

You need the spring clamp to hold the file. All fixed guides without a built in clamp need this. Probably, a wag, 80% use this method. I will say that the advantage is you feel what's going on a little more. You have to hold the end of the file down with your thumb. The clamp holds the other end.

This video shows a special Kant twist clamp. It sounds like the cats meow, but some don't like it. I know @Atomicman didn't like it. I can't remember what he preferred. Believe it was the tiny Swix c - clamp.

@Jacques, what do you use?




This all sounds complicated, but it's not. If you never use tools and are worried about the whole thing, go with Beast Pro. I've had one since about 2000 and got a second one off Aman on epic. It's a well made tool. Just don't get the plastic version. I have that too, bought it for a family member for travel. It's been on a shelf for a decade. By passed by all sorts of fixed guides from $25 -$100 as they got used for racing.

For fixed guides if using shims, Sib's idea of a 2 deg guide plus a 1 deg shim is probably better. That way you always have a fixed 2 deg, (called either 88 or 92 deg). If you go 90, you'll always have to use some shim as you will never file at 90 other than scrapers.


These were nearly $100 when the came out, now $55:
https://shopcoldriver.com/products/sst-file-guide
http://www.hwk-skiwax.us/Waxing-Tuning-Tools/File-Guides-Sidewall-Tools/

Here's using a fixed guide with a clamp. That first file he has is a panzar file or body file. Very rough for taking material off quickly. Eventually you'll want one as it's also useful for shaping tip and tail of the ski and where the top sheet meets the sidewall. You should use the tip about the sharpie. Eventually you'll just see the change in reflection with decent light.


Changing angle plates on the Beast isn't complicated. Takes about a minute. If you don't change angles, you never change it.

Generally a gummi stone, rust eraser, or silicon carbide (black) sand paper for rust. 220-600 grit. Hopefully more like 400-600 unless it's bad.

This is why one needs to remove straps, separate skis, and wipe off after skiing. Assuming they're in an above freezing environment. Leaving straps on, esp with high moisture eastern snow, leads to rusting.

@James, I use BEAST only. Here is how I worked my Side of The BEAST Pro. I hate spring clamps!

 

[Dakine]

Spring clamps belong in a wood shop......

 

[Atomicman]

You need the spring clamp to hold the file. All fixed guides without a built in clamp need this. Probably, a wag, 80% use this method. I will say that the advantage is you feel what's going on a little more. You have to hold the end of the file down with your thumb. The clamp holds the other end.

This video shows a special Kant twist clamp. It sounds like the cats meow, but some don't like it. I know @Atomicman didn't like it. I can't remember what he preferred. Believe it was the tiny Swix c - clamp.

No Sir...I use a spring clamp and my thumb! And am not a fan of Side of Beast...Sold one apparently to you years ago.




@Jacques, what do you use?




This all sounds complicated, but it's not. If you never use tools and are worried about the whole thing, go with Beast Pro. I've had one since about 2000 and got a second one off Aman on epic. I

 

[otto]

@otto , Nice clamp, but why do you feel the need for such a strong one? The pressure applied to the tool and guide should be pretty small.

Doug,

So you can relax and let the tool do all the work. When you use a spring clamp you have to grip the tool much more to keep from having the file from the guide.

 

[Mendieta]

I do actually recommend the "Side of Beast Pro" - aluminum with stainless wear plate. Now that you can get a 1, 2 or 3 deg angle plate that screws in. You can swap out to change angles.
Do not get the cheaper all plastic version of that tool if they still make it.

Advantage of the Side of Beast?- no spring clamps. Multiple angles with one device. Disadvantage? It somewhat limits how the stone/file goes in due to the screw hold down knob being in place. Also, it's easier to have two guides or more frankly, instead of swapping plates. But you're not there yet. I have two Sides of Beast, both at 3 deg. I use the 2 deg plates for children and the innocent.

So, I went for the Side of Beast. I just ordered from Tognar. Later tonight I'll order at least one of the diamond stones following @KingGrump 's suggestions to get started.I like how the stone is firmly kept in place, and the videos of the svst looked like something I would struggle a bit with, using the spring clamp. I got all three angles I could encounter for quite some time (1, 2 and 3 degrees).

I decided to decouple this purchase from the portable bench / vise one for now, so I don't get hang up. I am going through the thread recommended by @KingGrump as well, for that.

This is soooo exciting. Thank you all!