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tlougee

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One thing to be very careful of with the 'long leg, short leg" mantra is dropping your inside hip as you shorten the inside leg. DON'T DO IT!!! Don't be a hip dumper in the never never land of perputually inside, out of balance, and reliant on 'park and ride' to stay upright on limited, well manicured terrain.


Here's a good visual for you:


The same skier, different terrain, and slightly different ski, but the fundamentals are crystal clear:

Yeah I got to ski with this guy a few years ago. At the time he worked with me on a problem I had "retreating in my turns" as he put it. He was right about that, I could feel what he was talking about, but I couldn't execute on his advice to "get more forward!" He was skiing behind me shouting to "get more forward!" and I was straining to put as much pressure into the front of my boots as I possibly could but clearly that's not what I needed to do. I needed to get my hips moving forward.
 

karlo

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Others followed up with suggestions of drills using Stork Turns, etc to get more pressure on the front of the outside ski earlier in the turn.

Excellent choice. And, when doing that drill, play with two things.

1. The aforementioned early shift to the little toe edge of the old inside ski, to subsequently roll onto flat, then other edge.

2. Holding inside foot, the one with heel lifted, more fore, more center, more back, and feel the shovel.

for some reason I seem to reach a certain amount of flexing / extending / angulation and then just stop as if I have hit some hard limit

Don't know your mind set approaching this, but IMO avoid thinking about achieving some level of flex, extension, angulation. Those are outcomes, when in balance and for a certain speed, of how short the turn is. Use drills to get early onto the outside ski, not to crank its edge, but to do (1) above. Find placement of inside foot so that edge angle of inside ski matches edge angle of outside, so they turn together. Then, for a certain speed, gradually make the turns shorter. Gradually, to get the feel of how the skis are responding. The timing of your movements, flex, extension, angulation are a response to what the ski is doing, not some notion of range. As turns shorten, and the pace of turns quickens, each of those motions get deeper; it just happens.

Edit:

I think this would also help for training.

1. Ski with duller edges on ice or hard hardpack for balance development.

2. Ski with softer skis for intermediates, even beginners, and carve turns on ice or hard hardpack, without skidding. Accentuates need for early turn initiation and value of gradual and progressive increase and decrease of edge angle.
 
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markojp

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Pretty much... take Debbie's 'stork' turn, but now press the forebody of the 'lifted' ski until the entire shovel bends. Try to get the toepiece of your binding on the snow while keeping the tail of the ski off the snow. You'll have to play with the a bit. You might think of it as pulling back that foot, but it will be much easier if you move up and over your outside ski AND scoot the foot of your lifted ski aft. It will also align your pelvis correctly without even havning to coach you into it. You will be pressuring the tip of the inside ski without adding much weight at all. Think about it for a moment. Do what I describe statically and imagine a scale under the shovel of the ski. Even if you're really honking on it, most of your body weight will be on the outside ski that's remaining on the ground. It'll still be roughly 90/10 in lateral weight distribution. It's different than the 'stork' in that you can't cheat. The ski is bent, or it's not. Unless very well coached, stork turns are all to easily done incorrectly and ineffectively. When you do it while bending the shovel, you'll be shocked how connected to the snow you'll feel. Round turns, varying turn shape, will all become accessible so long as you don't try to rush your transitions. Prepare for some soreness at the back of the chain: glutes &hamstrings... as well as your anterior tibialis. You'll be over your feet through the end of the arc and into transition. Kiss 'pushing off', hip dumping, and tilting your pelvis into the hill goodbye!


(And what Karlo said about angles being resultants, not goals.... in spades.)
 
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razie

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his advice to "get more forward!" He was skiing behind me shouting to "get more forward!" and I was straining to put as much pressure into the front of my boots as I possibly could but clearly that's not what I needed to do.
Forward is not an unspecified effort, but the result of specific things happening in your skiing and a few things you do - he should probably help you identify the exact reasons why you're not forward and how to correct it.

You don't have much footwork going on (i.e. you're hip dumping) and some alignment issues. So fix your alignment (start with a simple cuff alignment that you can do yourself).

Typical work to eliminate hip dumping is to focus on the lower legs and the inside foot: rollerblades and foot awareness and inside foot: tip the inside foot and pull it up and keep it back. Like markojp says, don't drop the inside hip. Flexing allows the feet to work, so flex more as well.

Quick cuff alignment (you can at least use it to check where you are).

Take the liners out but put the footbeds back in. Slide your feet into the boots, in front of a mirror. Stay in a natural stance (a boot width between your boots). Flex your feet until you contact the front of the cuff. Check if the tibia is centered in the cuff. It should be.
If not, loosen the bolts (at the back and sides) and turn the oval adjusters (hoping your boots have them) so the cuff tips whichever way needed (yours look to be too soft, so they have to move out.
 
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Jamt

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Thanks for the feedback Jamt. I agree very much with both of the things you said. I think the lack of it makes my skiing look too passive. What I need to figure out is do I need to simply add range of motion or do I need to be more progressive with the range of motion I already exhibit, or probably both. I have noticed that for some reason I seem to reach a certain amount of flexing / extending / angulation and then just stop as if I have hit some hard limit. I think it is something in my head that just is not comfortable going past a certain point. It is something I have become aware of in the last couple of seasons that I want to work on.
Both, and the progressive part is very important. If you reach a state of static balance on the outside ski the turn is dead. If you increase angulation from this point you will topple into the next turn.
 
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tlougee

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Both, and the progressive part is very important. If you reach a state of static balance on the outside ski the turn is dead. If you increase angulation from this point you will topple into the next turn.
People always criticize the old "park and ride" but what you said about the turn being dead at that point really gets at the heart of what the problem is with 'park and ride.' I think that for many skiers - myself included in the past - it can feel good especially on some nice groomed hard packed snow, but I have really begun to hate the feeling I get when I use all of my range of motion before the turn is completed.
 

karlo

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hate the feeling I get when I use all of my range of motion before the turn is

Interesting. The "feeling". In the hip dump thread, I think it was @LiquidFeet who described it as dropping a sack of potatoes, us being that sack. On the other hand, the feeling I get with a proper turn is like a monkey jumping on the bed, it's springy, it's exhilarating. Just don't fall off!
 
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tlougee

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Forward is not an unspecified effort, but the result of specific things happening in your skiing and a few things you do - he should probably help you identify the exact reasons why you're not forward and how to correct it.

You don't have much footwork going on (i.e. you're hip dumping) and some alignment issues. So fix your alignment (start with a simple cuff alignment that you can do yourself).

Typical work to eliminate hip dumping is to focus on the lower legs and the inside foot: rollerblades and foot awareness and inside foot: tip the inside foot and pull it up and keep it back. Like markojp says, don't drop the inside hip. Flexing allows the feet to work, so flex more as well.

Quick cuff alignment (you can at least use it to check where you are).

Take the liners out but put the footbeds back in. Slide your feet into the boots, in front of a mirror. Stay in a natural stance (a boot width between your boots). Flex your feet until you contact the front of the cuff. Check if the tibia is centered in the cuff. It should be.
If not, loosen the bolts (at the back and sides) and turn the oval adjusters (hoping your boots have them) so the cuff tips whichever way needed (yours look to be too soft, so they have to move out.
Thanks for the feedback Razie!

1. I had those boots professionally aligned and the footbed was ground down to align me. Not saying they don't need a second look, but I think the majority of my A-frame issue has to do with a lack of inside ski tipping. I also think it might help if I allowed my inside ski to get further out to the side as the turn progresses. Markojp also didn't seem to think it was an alignment issue although, like you, Josh thinks it's an issue.

2. How do you define hip dumping? Letting the hips drop back and / or inside of the turn too quickly? I would think that focusing on trying to keep the hips level would help more with that than focusing on the lower legs, etc.

3. Could you provide some context to your statement that "Flexing allows the feet to work, so flex more as well," as is in flex what ( ankles, knees, hips - all of the above ) and when in the turn? One thing I found this year when trying my best to carve really short slalom type turns is that I had more success when I kept everything lower to the snow. It seemed to give more more range of motion in my legs to aggressively edge the skis, etc. Maybe that is related to what you are talking about?
 

razie

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3. Could you provide some context to your statement that "Flexing allows the feet to work, so flex more as well," as is in flex what ( ankles, knees, hips - all of the above ) and when in the turn? One thing I found this year when trying my best to carve really short slalom type turns is that I had more success when I kept everything lower to the snow. It seemed to give more more range of motion in my legs to aggressively edge the skis, etc. Maybe that is related to what you are talking about?

Exactly. Try to tip the feet while standing up with a long leg - normally you can't do much, as the knees and ankles are not free to move - they're essentially both weighted down and "anchored" by the hips.
Then flex the legs (knee, ankle, hip to stay in balance) and try again: the more you flex, the better range of movement for foot/ankle tipping and edging the skis.

that's the classic joke with "bend ze knees, five dollars please" ;)

2.
To relate it back to your video, as soon as your skis are flat, your legs get long right away (or were already long at skis flat), so you can't effectively use your feet for tipping - the only way to edge the skis is if you directly lower your hip (i.e. hip dump).

So, make sure the new outside leg - and by extension (sic!) your inside leg - doesn't go long right at the edge change, so that you have some range of motion for using the feet for edging.

1.
looking at your knees. you push them into the hill quite a lot - if the boots were aligned properly, you shouldn't really have to. For sure more tests should be done to determine what the issue is: you can simply to a straight run towards the camera, on one foot at a time, trying to maintain a flat ski and then see how the body alignment looks like - looks like you would have trouble even keeping a flat ski.

checking the cuff alignment takes like 2 minutes and it's well worth knowing if they're in the ball park.

cheers
 
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tlougee

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Interesting. The "feeling". In the hip dump thread, I think it was @LiquidFeet who described it as dropping a sack of potatoes, us being that sack. On the other hand, the feeling I get with a proper turn is like a monkey jumping on the bed, it's springy, it's exhilarating. Just don't fall off!
Since we are opening up about our feelings :P I well share three more of them that I stumbled onto.

1. I have found that when the snow is skied off and it is hard to get a good edge hold that an aggressive move 'forward' into the turn can make a huge difference in getting my edges to hookup. I know that is rather vague, but it makes a huge difference for me and my confidence soars once I get into the groove this way.

2. I found that I was able to improve my range of motion while making GS style turns by having my inside pole pointed behind my ( think knuckles pointed down towards the snow ) late in the turn. I felt that I was able to move further into the turn and get me hips lower to the surface which seemed to produce a more dynamic turn completion.

3. I found that I had a better turn entry into GS turns by focusing on closing both ankles at the end of the old turn which gave me the feeling of moving my COM forward and then into the next turn. This combined with a willingness ( I say willingness because I still find it a little scary to do ) to let my COM direct itself down the hill while my skis are heading across the hill helped create a more dynamic turn in my opinion. It sort of takes me a little bit of a leap of faith to do it as you do feel a little exposed.
 
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tlougee

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Exactly. Try to tip the feet while standing up with a long leg - normally you can't do much, as the knees and ankles are not free to move - they're essentially both weighted down and "anchored" by the hips.
Then flex the legs (knee, ankle, hip to stay in balance) and try again: the more you flex, the better range of movement for foot/ankle tipping and edging the skis.

that's the classic joke with "bend ze knees, five dollars please" ;)

2.
To relate it back to your video, as soon as your skis are flat, your legs get long right away, so you can't effectively tip - the only way to edge the skis is if you directly lower your hip (i.e. hip dump).

So, make sure the new outside leg - and by extension (sic!) your inside leg - doesn't go long right at the edge change, so that you have some range of motion for using the feet for edging.

1.
looking at your knees. you push them into the hill quite a lot - if the boots were aligned properly, you shouldn't really have to. For sure more tests should be done to determine what the issue is: you can simply to a straight run towards the camera, on one foot at a time, trying to maintain a flat ski and then see how the body alignment looks like - looks like you would have trouble even keeping a flat ski.

checking the cuff alignment takes like 2 minutes and it's well worth knowing if they're in the ball park.

cheers
Razie your follow up on points 2 and 3 are a huge help! As to (1) the alignment issue I will run the check you suggest before the next time I ski. I have done the straight line test on one ski in years past and I seemed to be able to keep things moving on a straight line but I don't have any video of it so I don't know what compensating movements I may have been making. My left leg is about 3/4 inch shorter than the right which just means my right hip is always higher than my left what I walk or run but I don't think it is really an issue on skis as you are also flexing the inside leg and extending the outside. I really grew up skiing straight slalom skis and focused on only the outside ski with a purposeful A-frame. I got pretty good at it and I am not the best at unlearning old habits.
 

markojp

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2.
To relate it back to your video, as soon as your skis are flat, your legs get long right away (or were already long at skis flat), so you can't effectively use your feet for tipping - the only way to edge the skis is if you directly lower your hip (i.e. hip dump).
1.
looking at your knees. you push them into the hill quite a lot - if the boots were aligned properly, you shouldn't really have to.

For the OP, These both allude to the bottom line; great skiing starts from the feet inside the boots. Big movements above the feet are resultants and refinements connected to tactics, not 'how to's'. Making big moves in lieu of more actively using the feet will more often than not compromise balance. This is why your ski tips are diverting and forcing finishing with a push off. In the terrain being skied, there isn't a big price, but 'big moves first' will limit your versatility as you move to more challenging terrain and conditions.
 

fullStack

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My left leg is about 3/4 inch shorter than the right which just means my right hip is always higher than my left what I walk or run but I don't think it is really an issue on skis as you are also flexing the inside leg and extending the outside.

I knew there was a reason your hands were doing what they were doing... ;)

Are you not compensating for this in your equipment setup?
 
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tlougee

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I knew there was a reason your hands were doing what they were doing... ;)

Are you not compensating for this in your equipment setup?
Nope. Years ago I did have a pair of boots modified to compensate for the leg length difference but it didn't seem to make much difference to me. If it is a real problem I should think there would be some evidence of it when comparing a right footed to a left footed turn, but AFAIK there is not. My operating assumption is that it doesn't really matter because the inside leg is always flexing and the outside extending so the difference is just made up by a little more or less flexing and extending depending on the turn direction. The only time I really feel something that might be related to it is when skiing with only one ski. In that case I have a much harder time executing a good left hand turn ( my shorter leg ) with the ski in that foot than I do executing a good right hand turn with the ski on the right foot. I am not sure this has any relevance, but it might.
 

karlo

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our feelings... aggressive move 'forward' into the turn can make a huge difference in getting my edges to hookup

The feeling I have is of my feet having been pulled back under me, even behind me. When I get the feeling of an aggressive move forward, it's a bad feeling, the feeling that I have pitched my upper body way past perpendicular of slope. I find I am more stable if upper body remains near-perpendicular, the legs controlling the skis, the skis doing the work. kinda like the upper body riding in a Rolls Royce? I've never ridden in a Rolls Royce. Only read about it, like skiing, at Pugski. :)
 
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tlougee

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The feeling I have is of my feet having been pulled back under me, even behind me. When I get the feeling of an aggressive move forward, it's a bad feeling, the feeling that I have pitched my upper body way past perpendicular of slope. I find I am more stable if upper body remains near-perpendicular, the legs controlling the skis, the skis doing the work. kinda like the upper body riding in a Rolls Royce? I've never ridden in a Rolls Royce. Only read about it, like skiing, at Pugski. :)
I think you described the feeling I was trying to describe better than I did.
 

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