• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

MA request

Ozan

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Posts
44
Location
Turkey


spring skiing slushy snow
skis: 177 cm rossi p800 r:15m

there is noticable over-extension especially on short turns (after 1:38) I can see that myself. I will try to flex more at transitions next time Im on the snow.

anything to add to that?

thank you
 
Last edited:

Jilly

Lead Cougar
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,410
Location
Belleville, Ontario,/ Mont Tremblant, Quebec
Love your short turns. In the long and medium ones, I'm seeing the old time "pop". Instead of moving up, try moving in towards the inside of the turn.

One "exercise" is to hold your poles by the handle but hands pointed forward. Hold the poles to the side and keep the basket end on the snow. Someone must have a video of this....
 
Thread Starter
TS
Ozan

Ozan

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Posts
44
Location
Turkey
, I'm seeing the old time "pop".
thanks. that pop mostly happens at low speeds. I think I need it to get myself to the other side. when the speed sets in I just flex outside leg and topple over
 

karlo

Out on the slopes
Inactive
Joined
May 11, 2017
Posts
2,708
Location
NJ
I’m looking at the turns starting at about 0:40. I appears to me that your inside foot is pulled back more (good) in your left turns and your inside foot is projected forward more (not as good) in your right turns. Also note the different fall line of one side of the trail than the other. I feel your upper body is more properly aligned to fall line in your left turns than in your right. I think a more highly tuned sense of where fall line is would be of benefit.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,381
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
@Ozan you have some nice things going on in your skiing. There's separation between your upper and lower body and you are able to generate angulation, not just inclination.

There are three things I see that would help you to obtain greater ski performance.

  1. First, you change edges through an extension move the old inside leg/new outside leg. I'm not going to say that using an extension move is wrong, but the effect of the way you are doing it causes the ski to be pushed to an edge in the top part of the turn -- that is, after the edge is changed, you continue to extend presumably to move your body to the inside of the turn, but the effect is also to cause a displacement laterally of the ski. And since your body is moving away from the skis in the top part of the turn, you cause the maximum pressure to come later in your turn.

    IMHO, you would benefit greatly by learning to let your body travel with your skis. So rather than trying to send your body, instead try to think about using your feet and lower leg to change the edges. As you come out of the apex of the turn, start decreasing edge angle by rolling the knees down the hill and into the next turn. This will keep you more in contact with the skis and allow you to build early edge through tipping the feet and lower leg rather than by pushing the body in and the skis out. Building this early edge without pushing on the skis allows the body to travel with the skis, and the early edge creates a platform to accept the pressure that will be building through the turn. It also stretches the force of the turn over a greater distance, reducing the force in the bottom phase of the turn.

  2. You are pretty good at turning your legs more than your upper body. But while you create nice rotational separation in the top part of the turn, you let all of it go in the finish of the turn. This is a waste of the nice energy that you stored in the top part of the turn through creating tension between your upper body and legs -- don't let it all go. What's the benefit? The coiled energy that you create in the top of the turn and maintain in the bottom of the turn will provide torque to assist in turning the skis in the top of the new turn.

  3. The third area is to work on manipulating pressure along the length of the ski. You are allowing your outside foot to drift aft with the result that you hugely flex the front of the boot, more so on your left footed turn than your right. The inside foot, meanwhile, is a bit in front of you. So you are too far forward on the outside ski and too far aft on the inside one. See how there are different angles between the shins of the legs? I suspect you have a belief that you should be forward, and the way you are trying to get there is to shove that outside shin strongly against the front of the boot.

    There's a lot to work on in fore/aft pressure management, but for now, see if you can attempt to get the same degree of flexion in both ankles. And do not push on the front of the boot. Instead, see if you can stand in the center of the boot and avoid compressing the front of the boot. If anything, see if you can sometimes feel the rear cuff of the boot.

    Later, when you've mastered standing in the center of the boot, you can start to work on manipulating pressure to affect the turn shape.
Good luck!

Mike
 

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
Skier
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
5,843
Location
West of CDA South of Canada
If we were skiing together and you asked, would suggest some garlands initiating turns just by pressing down o the big toe of the outside ski. When that starts feeling good we would start adding the little toes and start turning across the fall line.
Please except this as free advice. It is worth exactly what you payed for it.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
I reckon the points from @Mike King highly relevant.

On the fore/aft balance - feel for pressure to build through the heel of the outside ski as the turn progresses. At the moment the front foot has a tendency to get too far forward and you are losing some grip.

On the lateral balance - while you generate good angles it's done and dusted early in the turn. Patience is a virtue - just like flexing through the turn we should use our full range of motion progressively. Always be moving in or moving out, rather than static.

Inside out turns (Whitepass turns) will help with developing lateral patience, fore/aft balance, toppling before angulation and inside foot placement.
 

karlo

Out on the slopes
Inactive
Joined
May 11, 2017
Posts
2,708
Location
NJ
note the different fall line of one side of the trail than the other. I feel your upper body is more properly aligned to fall line in your left turns than in your right. I think a more highly tuned sense of where fall line is would be of benefit.
BTW, I would not use torso alignment as the cue. I would use pelvic alignment to the fall line as the kinesthetic cue.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
Ozan, overall I see some good things going on in your skiing, and honestly, I'd be quite happy with myself if I could do as well. A good aspect of your skiing is your ability to develop some strong hip angulation and separation. (Agreeing with Mike King.) That should be a good foundation to build upon.

In the medium radius turns, you create a smooth and relaxed appearance. I like that you are generally initiating turns without pivoting flat skis. Where I think you could do some work is in the latter part of the shaping phase and in the finish phase. Particularly on the steeper parts of the hill, you consistently stop the turning action in the latter part of a turn. Your runs have substantial sections where the skis are traveling straight between turns. I think that you could make your skiing more versatile and dynamic if you could achieve a continuation of the turning action right up to the point at which you go into the transition into turning the other way. As you approach the transition, you are losing the upper-lower body separation (as Mike King noted). I see this as being a result of you getting static in the middle of the turn. I'm not seeing a continuation of foot tipping, angulation, and separation as the turn progresses. Remember that these are MOVEMENTS, not positions. They should develop progressively through the turn (advice the geepers already gave). It might help to be cautious about not using up your range of motion for angulation and separation right in the initiation phase of the turn. You'll need to have some range of motion in reserve for later.

On occasion your inside foot abruptly shuffles forward relative to the outside foot, and you develop an excessive tip lead. (Karlo noted this.) This brings your balance to the inside, leading to you losing your fore-aft centered balance on the outside ski (the outside foot "drifting aft," as Mike King put it), and leading to the tails sometimes slipping out. As Mike King and geepers said, you should seek CENTERED balance rather than FORWARD balance, and it may even move to the back as the turn progresses. Beginners and novices are always too far back, with vertical shins, so everyone gets it drilled into them that they need to get forward, but the result is that better skiers often overdo it.

Improvements in these areas would set you up better for the transition to the new turn. A very dynamic way of initiating is to minimize the vertical extension that you're now displaying (and you've noted), and instead seek to bring the skis up under you by continuing the skis' turning action while maintaining a well-centered balance (fore-aft), and flexing the old outside leg. This will lead to the support for your body mass being withdrawn, and your mass starting to topple down the mountain. This will give you the opportunity to begin tipping your feet over into the new turn and create very early edge angles, while your skis are still traveling across the fall line.

Your current pattern of vertical extension creates slow transitions. If you strive to create quickness in the movements leading from one turn to another, it will give you the opportunity to make your skiing more dynamic. The speed at which you're skiing in the video is more than adequate to make a "pop" unnecessary.

Honestly, it's difficult to see in the less focused parts of the video, but I think there's a likelihood that your pole touches are misdirected, reinforcing you moving vertically and bringing your balance briefly too far forward. (But on the lower parts of the runs, pole touches were often absent.)

In your short radius turns, I see you starting the turning action on a flat ski. Expanding on what Mike King said in perceptive detail--your vertical rise in transition leads to you bringing your balance point forward. As a result, the tails of the skis skid out. This is followed by a bit of a hard landing. The turn radius is not consistent. In that spring snow, you get a big spray from the skis, all happening in a brief portion of the turn. I think the pathway to improvement is going to be similar to what's needed in medium radius turns--it will just take even greater focus and precision in putting the skis in a place where they will perform for you. Your 15 meter skis should be capable of making some nice carvy short radius turns.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
....A very dynamic way of initiating is to minimize the vertical extension that you're now displaying (and you've noted), and instead seek to bring the skis up under you by continuing the skis' turning action while maintaining a well-centered balance (fore-aft), and flexing the old outside leg. This will lead to the support for your body mass being withdrawn, and your mass starting to topple down the mountain. This will give you the opportunity to begin tipping your feet over into the new turn and create very early edge angles, while your skis are still traveling across the fall line.....
Excellent post. @Chris V. you covered everything, all with an illuminating explanation of why the old happens and why the new replacement would be better.

The segment dealing with after the fall line, which I've quoted above, is something I've never heard PSIA instructors discuss. What you describe is what I do. I think of it in a slightly different way, or with different words, but I think it's the same.

Here's how I think of this part of the turn. Is this indeed the same as what you are saying, Chris? I'll write this with "you" in it, but I simply mean the skier, not anyone in particular.

1. After the fall line, continue to tip the skis by shortening/flexing the inside leg and rolling its knee down toward the snow. Skis will continue to turn; bottom of turn will be round.
2. While doing this, shorten/flex the outside leg to bring that outside foot/ski up under you. This releases the body and allows it to begin crossing the skis. You will be low when this happens.
3. The body movement across the skis starts them flattening, even though you are continuing to edge them. This seems like a contradiction, but it's not.
4. PSIA usually advises skiers to "flatten the skis" after the fall line. This way I'm describing is actually different. Continue to tip the skis while releasing the body to topple.
5. Skis will flip onto new edges early as a result of flexing the old outside leg and bringing that foot/ski back up under you. Nothing will need to be done directly to the skis to flatten them.
6. You will be "upside down" on the hill, body below skis. There will be early edge engagement while the skis are light, before they reach the fall line. The skis will turn to point downhill on their own because they will be on their new edges high in the turn.
 
Last edited:

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
LiquidFeet--yep, that's a more detailed description of what I was trying to say. Good stuff.

The one thing I'll add is that the "flattening of the skis after the fall line" will be a natural consequence of the increase in the contribution of the force of gravity to the total force exerted by the snow on the ski bases, of the gradual convergence of the paths of travel taken by the body and the skis, and of the gradual flexion of the outside leg from its greatest extension at the fall line. (This applies to dynamic turns at speed, and less so to skiing on the steepest terrain where the force of gravity has greater effects.) If you give the appropriate input, the progressive flattening will happen. You won't need to make a conscious effort to create the flattening. On the other hand, if you fight it, you've got the wrong idea.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
This is a version of the drill Jilly mentioned:'


That and also try to pay more attention to the feet.

Your movement pattern is to hop up and then stay on top of a long leg and just power up the heels from the hips - you got decent balance and can get away with that, obviously, but you can refine that by less effort: less hopping up and, as you get some flexion in the legs (bend ze kneez) at the top of the new turn, start paying attentio to using the feet and lower legs more.

These two go hand in hand: you can't use the feet when your legs are always long and you can't flex without paying attention to foot tipping...

Look carefully at the two hips above. While yellow pants sometimes uses the hips, the blue jacket has very quiet hips and upper body and plays with the lower legs and feet a lot. Slow speed drills magnify problems a lot!!
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top