MA Request

[HardDaysNight]

It looks to me that you are a little too forward.

It’s not germane to @Seldomski ’s OP but it is interesting that the Canadian trainers appear to have developed a fetish about skiers being too far forward and those who train with them get infected as well. And they therefore notice this ailment in pretty much everyone they see. Of course comparing most of the trainers with, say, really good FIS or WC racers doesn’t support the diagnosis; in fact, generally the contrary. Similar to PSIA trainers advising instructors to stand more upright, which appears to be the tip du jour this season!

 

[geepers]

It’s not germane to @Seldomski ’s OP but it is interesting that the Canadian trainers appear to have developed a fetish about skiers being too far forward and those who train with them get infected as well. And they therefore notice this ailment in pretty much everyone they see. Of course comparing most of the trainers with, say, really good FIS or WC racers doesn’t support the diagnosis; in fact, generally the contrary. Similar to PSIA trainers advising instructors to stand more upright, which appears to be the tip du jour this season!

Yeah, think you are being a tad unfair on any other CSIA adherents - it's me who keeps noticing. Well, I got pinged for not mentioning it in my last assessed teach so it's not going to get past me again!

It was also one of the last pieces of the puzzle to improving my own short turns (from being the worst part of my skiing to being slightly less bad than everything else).

In this case I'm looking at the sliding tails and asking: why?

On snow we could ask the OP to ski turns with balance a little further back and ask if that resulted in less, same or more grip. And we could also observe the result.

On racers getting forward vs "stand in the middle of the ski" . At a guess, it may have something to do with snow conditions. I find on softer, slower snow I need to focus on keeping my feet coming through whereas on hard snow I have to focus on keeping up with them. Crushing the front of the boot didn't add any value to my skiing but I'm not a racer skiing injected ice.

 

[Mike King]

On racers getting forward vs "stand in the middle of the ski" . At a guess, it may have something to do with snow conditions. I find on softer, slower snow I need to focus on keeping my feet coming through whereas on hard snow I have to focus on keeping up with them. Crushing the front of the boot didn't add any value to my skiing but I'm not a racer skiing injected ice.

My theory is that racers don't really get forward on the skis. I think they are actually a bit behind the feet at edge change, so have to "move forward" to catch up with the feet at the apex of the turn. At the apex, they are aiming to achieve maximum pressure and to use the resulting push to drive the body across the hill. If you are behind the feet at this point, you are not likely to catch up. But, in reality, you want the skis to bend in as much of a arc as possible -- bend the ski more at the tip than the tail and you introduce drag. But if you are behind the feet at this point, it is likely the point of no return -- the feet will accelerate faster than the body, with the result a likely crash or some other accommodation to get back in balance.

Just my $.02 and discussed with a USSA coach whom agrees with me. But what do I know?

Mike

 

[Noodler]

Thanks to @James for turning me onto the Head Japan youtube channel. Here's a video courtesy of that channel that I think speaks very well to most of the themes being discussed in the MA. Good stuff starts at about 50 seconds in.

 

[Noodler]

My theory is that racers don't really get forward on the skis. I think they are actually a bit behind the feet at edge change, so have to "move forward" to catch up with the feet at the apex of the turn. At the apex, they are aiming to achieve maximum pressure and to use the resulting push to drive the body across the hill. If you are behind the feet at this point, you are not likely to catch up. But, in reality, you want the skis to bend in as much of a arc as possible -- bend the ski more at the tip than the tail and you introduce drag. But if you are behind the feet at this point, it is likely the point of no return -- the feet will accelerate faster than the body, with the result a likely crash or some other accommodation to get back in balance.

Just my $.02 and discussed with a USSA coach whom agrees with me. But what do I know?

Mike

It's a good observation. We often discuss that being "behind" as you state doesn't count/matter if there isn't any weight/pressure on the skis. You're only actually in the backseat if you're pressuring the tail of the ski without any tip engagement.

 

[Seldomski]

If anyone wants a live demo , I'll be at Vail skiing tomorrow the 13th through 15th.

Assuming travel goes as planned...

If you posted before this message and meet me there, I'll buy you a beer*.

*Quantities limited ;-)

 

[Nobody]

Hello all , Hello seldomski, thanks for posting your video for MA, doing so you are giving me an opportunity to learn a lot , actually.
In my very humble opinion, this ( trying to link turns -but not succeeding; not being able to control speed while carving cleanly and not yet beign able to flow down a mogul field)

...The other thing I try to do is keep turning and linking one into the next.

I am also not usually trying to carve cleanly. When I do that i generally pick up a lot of speed and the forces are too high for me to manage and ski like that all day.

My goal with moguls is to ski the ones that can be zippered in zipper line. Irregular or really steep, I just want to ski them with flow in a narrow corridor.

Is linked to this ( brushed turns for speed control)

Firstly, thanks everyone for the analysis. I will not post too much since I am the student here...

I was not focusing specifically on achieving high edge angles. I generally ski with a brushed turn for speed control.

And boils down to what Erik said, you are not moving enough in regards to flexing/extending.

If you were my lesson, the first thing I'd see is that you don't move enough when you are skiing. In the first video I was thinking that you need more flex/extend, but it wasn't really that big of a deal. In the bumps video, you look super stiff. I think I'd start there. FWIW, turning from the hip sockets is gonna be harder when you never flex your legs.

Think of Bob B. "infinity move", (or imagine a piston moving inside a cylinder in an engine)if you keep flexing/extending the legs continously, e.g. when you reach the lower or higher position don't stop and wait but start immediately to revers the movement, you will be able to:
-Vary at will (control) speed by turn shape (I had such an epiphany when I finally realized this, i.e. that by continously flexing/extending by varying degrees of extension and speed of execution I could affect downhill speed), even when performing short radius turns
-Better absorb bumps in a bump run, and thus obtain a better "flow" down it
-Less muscle fratigue (you are not "opposing" the "flow" by staying stiff, in the end losing adherence to the terrain as well)

Also, if I have to say, rather than looking too forward, you seemed to me a tad bit too upright (and in the end, backward), just a little bit, but enough to add to the (problems with ) speed control thing and muscle fatigue.

I'm just a rookie instructor, so, feel free ignore what I say. It's just my .02.
Cheers.

 

[Seldomski]

Thank you @Nobody -- I am going to play with skiing with legs more flexed soon (I hope) and work on moving my legs in the hip joint, not the whole body to make turns. I'll try this on some greens. One of the challenges for me is flexing and being forward still without bending excessively at the waist.

The other issue is athletic - I am not sure I will be able to ski with legs flexed all day. My current method is not technically correct, but I can do it all day and it does not require much energy to do. Just playing around with rotating my legs in hip socket on dry land - it does not feel great and I fear getting sore/tired very rapidly.

I looked at written notes from instructors a few years ago last night - there are some words repeated there that I see in posts here. I may finally be understanding what was being said just now. Maybe I can make some real headway soon? Am I really understanding yet? TBD

 

[Noodler]

Thank you @Nobody -- I am going to play with skiing with legs more flexed soon (I hope) and work on moving my legs in the hip joint, not the whole body to make turns. I'll try this on some greens. One of the challenges for me is flexing and being forward still without bending excessively at the waist.

The other issue is athletic - I am not sure I will be able to ski with legs flexed all day. My current method is not technically correct, but I can do it all day and it does not require much energy to do. Just playing around with rotating my legs in hip socket on dry land - it does not feel great and I fear getting sore/tired very rapidly.

I looked at written notes from instructors a few years ago last night - there are some words repeated there that I see in posts here. I may finally be understanding what was being said just now. Maybe I can make some real headway soon? Am I really understanding yet? TBD

The goal is not to ski with legs "flexed all day". Flexion should happen at transition. At transition you should be "light" (as light as possible) and tipping the skis to the new edges. So when you're flexed you're not pounding your quads. Maximum pressure/force at the turn apex, least at the transition. Note that the pressure in the turn will build and be at its maximum WITHOUT needing to press or push on your skis.

When this is all done right, skiing this way is very relaxing and you can go all day. You'll know if you're doing it wrong really quickly because you'll most likely be back in the lodge having a drink and giving your legs a rest.

 

[Seldomski]

The goal is not to ski with legs "flexed all day". Flexion should happen at transition. At transition you should be "light" (as light as possible) and tipping the skis to the new edges.

Understood, but I will probably execute it very poorly initially (i.e. more time in the lodge).

 

[geepers]

Thanks to @James for turning me onto the Head Japan youtube channel. Here's a video courtesy of that channel that I think speaks very well to most of the themes being discussed in the MA. Good stuff starts at about 50 seconds in.

That is so freakn pretty. Terrain, skiing, skis. Incredible.

 

[Nobody]

Understood, but I will probably execute it very poorly initially (i.e. more time in the lodge).

Do not worry about that, skiing is a sport of movements, not of positions, so the more you move your legs, the less tired you'll find out to be (keeping the muscles fixed in a position - isometric efforts- e.g. flexed as you say, is going to "cost" you more energies in the end) in the general economy of the day.

 

[jack97]

One of the challenges for me is flexing and being forward still without bending excessively at the waist.

I assume flexing and being forward (without folding at the waist) is for the purposes of skiing direct in the moguls. If so, do those drill where you flex in the transition while in the flats. If you want to further reinforce these movements into muscle memory, then consider the DIY setup I described from the link below for dryland training. It emulates the flex movements you would do in the flats. That was the purpose of the setup to truly flex with your legs and ingrain this into memory.

DrylandAbsorption

 

[Josh Matta]

If anything independent legs motion with a stable hips,back,shoulders seems to take effort from the legs and put it on to the core for me

 

[Noodler]

If anything independent legs motion with a stable hips,back,shoulders seems to take effort from the legs and put it on to the core for me

I think that's a good observation. And of course some decent level of physical fitness is required to ski at higher levels. I just hope skiers that try to bring more flexing into their skiing don't end up doing a perpetual "wall sit" all day while on the mountain. That's a recipe for quads destruction.

 

[KevinF]

That is so freakn pretty. Terrain, skiing, skis. Incredible.

you forgot to mention the guy’s pants!

 

[KingGrump]

you forgot to mention the guy’s pants!

Kevin, I am starting to worry about you.

 

[mdf]

For most skiers, learning to use flexion for releasing a turn is about as foreign a movement as exists for them in skiing. It can take seasons worth of work to really own it. Being "short" at transition and "long" at the turn apex not only will open more options for you to handle varied terrain, but it is inherent to good mogul skiing (which was another one of your stated goals).

I learned with an up unweighting transition. It took me years to get rid of it.

 

[peterm]

Thanks to @James for turning me onto the Head Japan youtube channel. Here's a video courtesy of that channel that I think speaks very well to most of the themes being discussed in the MA. Good stuff starts at about 50 seconds in.

Cool video. Reminds me I need to cut my poles down by a couple of cm before my Christmas ski trip...

 

[Mike King]

@Seldomski, IMHO, the ability to ski with dynamic range, that is with a great deal of range in flexion and extension of the ankles, knees, and hips, is probably the single biggest key to success in high end skiing, whether it be in ripping carves on the groomers, shredding the massive bump run, or conquering the steeps. It is all linked to the fifth fundamental in PSIA"s parlance: regulate the pressure caused by the ski/snow interface.

Watch this video:
Do you see these skiers pushing on the ski ever? Watch how much they turn the legs under a stable upper body. These are the elements that you need to master before you can start to work on the fifth fundamental. When you have learned how to travel with the skis and tip them to an edge, you will then be in a place to start on developing the dynamic range that will elevate your bump skiing, like this:
Or steep skiing, like this:
While you may have done skating and J turns before, don't short change them from the progression I gave you above. There's a reason for the progression and even though you may have done the early steps before, you will want to have the recent patterning of the earlier steps to flow into the later tasks.

Mike