MA request

[James]

Here you go at the 40 second mark

Like @geepers said, it doesn't really matter. We should take the matter up with Gillies on a chairlift so we get some accent time.
The key is, is he skiing completely square? No.

 

[HardDaysNight]

You mean like this?


Or this?


I don’t see any driving the hip forward in either of those. I see the legs turning under a stable upper body creating counter as a result.

Actually yes, Hirscher in the second video clearly creates counter at the top of the turn by an active movement of his pelvis independent of his legs rotating in his hip sockets. All great skiers do this. It’s more evident in GS than SL. The question is why.

 

[dj61]

Actually yes, Hirscher in the second video clearly creates counter at the top of the turn by an active movement of his pelvis independent of his legs rotating in his hip sockets. All great skiers do this. It’s more evident in GS than SL. The question is why.

To be fully balanced against the outside leg.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Rick's drills have worked well for me so far so I'm not surprised that this particular instance is a case of user error.

It's not an "error," especially if it results in better ski-snow interaction that allows the skier to ski a chosen line at a chosen speed.

There's the ideal one-turn-fits-all, and the real world which displays all kinds of differences. Different bodies making real turns on snow need different "cues" to do what's most functional for them given their anatomy, their gear, the conditions of the day, and their current embedded movement patterns. Doing stuff with the new inside hip, whether moving it forward or up or both, is sometimes called for in order to repair or improve or replace some movement pattern that is currently being used but which isn't leading to desired ski performance on snow.

And a word for versatility. If you can move the hip forward, or not, on command, that's great. If you can move the hip up, or not, on command, great. If you can blend both together, or not, same goes. If you can intentionally drop it, or not, ditto. Now you are empowered to do trial and error to figure out which is best for your skiing.

 

[Mike King]

Actually yes, Hirscher in the second video clearly creates counter at the top of the turn by an active movement of his pelvis independent of his legs rotating in his hip sockets. All great skiers do this. It’s more evident in GS than SL. The question is why.

There’s a difference between creating the edge angle that a World Cup skier seeks in a gs turn and what a recreational skier is able to do. In a tight gs turn where the hip approaches the snow, you’ve got to create space for the deep flexion of the inside leg. The hip rotates as it is lifted to allow the flexion required,

The OP is not yet skiing at the level of Marcel Hirscher and the magnitude and timing of pelvic rotation in the skiing he is showing is not efficient. . It will be a while before he is able to make a gs turn that might benefit from creating space for deep inside leg flexion.

 

[Fuller]

If you are in need of hip mobility I suggest:


Loosen up y'all!
Maybe there should be a "Sure you can ski, but can you dance?" thread...

 

[Fishbowl]

Ten years ago it was parallel shins people obsessed over. Lindsey Vonn is a failure with that one. Amazing how she was able to win 82 times on the wcup with technique people consider as ghastly from a parallel shins viewpoint.

And there is the disconnect between practice and theory. Despite loosing points for style in the eye of the critic, I’ll take her actual results as validation of her technique.

 

[Wilhelmson]

So inside foot back but don't let the hip drop back with it?

Last weekend I noticed my right inside arm getting lazy and falling back. Is there a drill to work on this? Probably bad habits make it very hard for me to create new movements.

Brave and good skiing op.

 

[Mike King]

Ten years ago it was parallel shins people obsessed over. Lindsey Vonn is a failure with that one. Amazing how she was able to win 82 times on the wcup with technique people consider as ghastly from a parallel shins viewpoint.

In terms of counter you can ski into it or give yourself a little tension there. The tension can prevent full body rotation. That's a big subject.

I think the parallel shins thing was looking to body parts to try and determine what was going on with the skis. In performing movement analysis now, we look at the ski performance first and then relate it to how the body is performing. So looking at someone like Lindsey Vonn who has a high Q angle, you may see A-framing, but the skis are tipping at the same rate and at the same angle. So the queue of looking for parallel shins was really a miscue.

And there is the disconnect between practice and theory. Despite loosing points for style in the eye of the critic, I’ll take her actual results as validation of her technique.

Absolutely. But we also need to be mindful of what we are looking for. Not all skiing is racing, and racing technique doesn’t work everywhere, notably in steep tight ungrounded unconsolidated off piste conditions, as notables such as Svindal have found (see evolution of a free skier if you don’t believe me).

 

[Doby Man]

I do not think it is correct that equally tipped skis can produce non-parallel shins in the lateral plane. I have never seen that before in anyone with reasonably aligned boots. Not sure if this is what you are saying. I do realize that "unequal" dorsiflexion can produce the visual of non-parallel shins on "equally" tipped skis depending on the camera angle but I do not think that is what we are talking about the sagittal plane. Though you are correct regarding the underlying and foundational aspect of the parallel visual which does specifically represent two equally tipped skis, both equally flat in transition and equally tipped at apex.That said, I contend that Vonn's technique stems from the origination of her technique when she was about 15. While top ski racers do change their technique, this is the age of their technique that catapulted them into the WC much of which sticks with a racer through their career. For Vonn, that is about two decades ago when more skiers were operating from a single ski platform including a much less actively participating inside ski and resulting in dominant outside ski dorsiflexion. When turning using "only" the outside ski, an A frame is actually faster for the old inside/new outside ski to get up on edge and therefore is a good thing to do for single footed racers. A two ski platform is represented by equal tipping and equal surface contact (not pressure) at all times in the turn. Of, course, that is a goal and not one of constant achievement. While Fishbowl is correct that results validate racing technique, it does not necessarily validate one to be passed off to a developing racer. of the next generation.

Also, while I agree that it may be true that racing technique does not "work" everywhere, "racecourse technique" has a way, like no other discipline, of exposing the most important fundamental movements, the strict adherence to which is the ultimate key to terrain versatility in the developmental context.

 

[Steve]

So inside foot back but don't let the hip drop back with it?

Some people think of pulling the inside leg back, others think of pushing the inside hip forward. It's the same result. COM moves further forward in relation to the BOS (feet) in both cases.

 

[James]

Some people think of pulling the inside leg back, others think of pushing the inside hip forward. It's the same result. COM moves further forward in relation to the BOS (feet) in both cases.

One can push the hip and let the foot go forward. The important thing is to keep the foot under so the ski tracks. There's some tension in the ankle joint. If you're tipping the inside foot and bending, closing, the knee joint it should be good.

 

[Mike King]

I do not think it is correct that equally tipped skis can produce non-parallel shins in the lateral plane. I have never seen that before in anyone with reasonably aligned boots. Not sure if this is what you are saying. I do realize that "unequal" dorsiflexion can produce the visual of non-parallel shins on "equally" tipped skis depending on the camera angle but I do not think that is what we are talking about the sagittal plane. Though you are correct regarding the underlying and foundational aspect of the parallel visual which does specifically represent two equally tipped skis, both equally flat in transition and equally tipped at apex.That said, I contend that Vonn's technique stems from the origination of her technique when she was about 15. While top ski racers do change their technique, this is the age of their technique that catapulted them into the WC much of which sticks with a racer through their career. For Vonn, that is about two decades ago when more skiers were operating from a single ski platform including a much less actively participating inside ski and resulting in dominant outside ski dorsiflexion. When turning using "only" the outside ski, an A frame is actually faster for the old inside/new outside ski to get up on edge and therefore is a good thing to do for single footed racers. A two ski platform is represented by equal tipping and equal surface contact (not pressure) at all times in the turn. Of, course, that is a goal and not one of constant achievement. While Fishbowl is correct that results validate racing technique, it does not necessarily validate one to be passed off to a developing racer. of the next generation.

Also, while I agree that it may be true that racing technique does not "work" everywhere, "racecourse technique" has a way, like no other discipline, of exposing the most important fundamental movements, the strict adherence to which is the ultimate key to terrain versatility in the developmental context.

Are you aware of the difference in the q angle between men and women? I thought that parallel shins equaled equal tipping until I was shown a video of a woman candidate performing short radius turns in a level 3 exam. She scored 6s from the examiners even though she looked to have a significant a frame — her edge angles were the same.

I agree that race training teaches you a lot about technique. Off piste skiing, however, requires a different skil blend.

 

[TheArchitect]

I went to Wachusett today and did drills all day. I worked through the rotation and flexion/extension drills from Your Ski Coach and then started working on some of the tips from this thread. I have a ways to go before I permanently break some of the ingrained habits but I definitely felt a difference, especially with the hip raise. It felt much more natural and effective than trying to push the hip forward like I was.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Fuller]

So inside foot back but don't let the hip drop back with it?

In my skiing last year I was obsessed with tip lead and I knew I had too much of it. It became a primary focus which meant I would pull everything back which put too much pressure on the inside ski which leads to banking and even the outside shoulder going forward.

This year I'm not so concerned with tip lead, I'm more concerned about progressively loading the outside ski so that I'm properly balanced with a majority of my weight over it (I hesitate to put a number on it but it's way more than I had imagined). With the inside ski lightened (a lot), inside hip forward, inside ski tipped to the inside edge it takes surprisingly little pressure to create a moving pivot for the outside ski to do its thing.

 

[Wilhelmson]

haha I'm the opposite. Now I favor the outside ski so much that my inside ski will wander rather than stay parallel. More on the right foot because that leg is a little longer and my back is screwed up so I weigh that foot more even when I walk.

Can't win.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I went to Wachusett today and did drills all day. I worked through the rotation and flexion/extension drills from Your Ski Coach and then started working on some of the tips from this thread. I have a ways to go before I permanently break some of the ingrained habits but I definitely felt a difference, especially with the hip raise. It felt much more natural and effective than trying to push the hip forward like I was.

Thanks again everyone.

One of the strongest skiers I've known, a PSIA examiner, took an entire season away from any challenging skiing so he could work on the new movement patterns he wanted to use with the then-new "shaped skis". Nothing is harder in skiing than breaking unwanted habitual movement patterns.

 

[TheArchitect]

One of the strongest skiers I've known, a PSIA examiner, took an entire season away from any challenging skiing so he could work on the new movement patterns he wanted to use with the then-new "shaped skis". Nothing is harder in skiing than breaking unwanted habitual movement patterns.

I'm under no illusion regarding how long and hard this 'undoing' will be. Luckily my son is a low intermediate and most of the terrain we ski will allow me to be constantly working on fixing these things.

 

[Steve]

I have been doing that this season, dialing down the challenge and dialing up the precision. It's fine with me, sometimes I feel like others at my home mountain think I don't want to ski the steep stuff as much as they do, which is currently true, but as always I strive to care less what others think of me as I get older!

 

[Doby Man]

Are you aware of the difference in the q angle between men and women? I thought that parallel shins equaled equal tipping until I was shown a video of a woman candidate performing short radius turns in a level 3 exam. She scored 6s from the examiners even though she looked to have a significant a frame — her edge angles were the same.

I agree that race training teaches you a lot about technique. Off piste skiing, however, requires a different skil blend.

Mike, there are three categories, if you will, of the A frame. There is A framing in the lateral plane that you can see from a frontal view, their is A framing in the sagittal plane that we can see from the side and, the most common form? A little of both that can be seen from 360 degrees. If a skier is equally tipping the skis from equal femur rotation but not equally dorsiflexing the ankles, you will see an A frame in the sagittal plane. If a skier is unequally tipping the skis from unequal femur rotation but equally dorsiflexing the ankles, you will see an A frame in the lateral plane. If a skier is unequally tipping from unequal femur rotation the skis AND unequally dorsiflexing the ankles, you will see an A frame in both the lateral and sagittal planes. If a skier is equally tipping from equal femur rotation and the skis AND equally dorsiflexing the ankles you will see no A frame from rither view represented by parallel shafts in both planes.

The key to riding one’s technique of any type of A frame is for the purpose of utilizing both skis as a single platform as their fore/aft pressure and tipping become synchronized with each other. Both skis bending with the same DIRT but for the Rate (of pressure). The duration, intensity and timing of the pressure are the same. The only difference in these mechanics between the inside and outside ski is that the lion’s share of pressure always goes to the outside ski. The duration, intensity rate and timing of the tipping? All four factors are equal. The two skis become one platform and more power is given to the skier. Using both skis meaningfully in each turn is high tech platform management.

You are correct that all this is somewhat skewed from a woman’s biomechanical perspective. I have enough of my own biomechanical issues as it is and, frankly, those are two more I wouldn't want.