MA request: some bumps and carving on green...

[jack97]

The foot needs to be secure so that movements in the ankle and subtalar joint are transmitted to the skis. But the cuff?

This should be made as a refrig magnet.

 

[Noodler]

It depends on where. The foot needs to be secure so that movements in the ankle and subtalar joint are transmitted to the skis. But the cuff? If the boot is too tight, it restricts the ability to effectively use the ankle, which controls approximately 94% of body mass as opposed to something like 70% for the knee and 60% for the hip. Dave McPhail, when he instrumented WC skiers, found virtually no cuff pressure from those skiers.

Mike

We need to separate any discussion of the buckling tightness from the flex stiffness of the boot. We're starting to conflate these two separate concerns.

No matter how loose you may leave the upper cuff, when you are skiing correctly with a good amount of shin contact/pressure against the tongue, the back of your leg has no clue how far away the rear of the cuff is from your leg (and nor should it care unless you suddenly get thrown back and need the rear support of the boot to recover).

Now if you're stating that you believe completely in MacPhail's studies where he contends that you can ski with high performance without needing "the front of the boot" then I am not going to give that conversation "the time of day". If there was ANY validity to his findings, ski boot design would have changed radically long ago. But it didn't. Enough said on that.

 

[Mike King]

We need to separate any discussion of the buckling tightness from the flex stiffness of the boot. We're starting to conflate these two separate concerns.

No matter how loose you may leave the upper cuff, when you are skiing correctly with a good amount of shin contact/pressure against the tongue, the back of your leg has no clue how far away the rear of the cuff is from your leg (and nor should it care unless you suddenly get thrown back and need the rear support of the boot to recover).

Now if you're stating that you believe completely in MacPhail's studies where he contends that you can ski with high performance without needing "the front of the boot" then I am not going to give that conversation "the time of day". If there was ANY validity to his findings, ski boot design would have changed radically long ago. But it didn't. Enough said on that.

and if you believe that the shin should always be in contact with the front of the boot, I’ll respectfully disagree and suggest that you try using the whole ski rather than only the front of it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

and if you believe that the shin should always be in contact with the front of the boot, I’ll respectfully disagree and suggest that you try using the whole ski rather than only the front of it.

Maintaining constant shin-tongue contact definitely does not equal light heels inside the boot and a tail that washes out. That is, if the skier's range of dorsiflexion is enough. Just keep the heel firmly planted as you dorsiflex enough to get that shin-tongue contact.

When a skier controls the foot and ankle this way while skiing, then it's where upper body's CoM hovers over the ski that determines whether or not the tail or tip washes or grips. With ankles dorsiflexed, this is then controlled by the skier working with joints above the ankle.

Test: Static on skis. Dorsiflex/close ankles to get shin-tongue contact while firmly seating the heel on the bootboard. Then move the CoM fore-aft while keeping those ankles closed, feeling the tips lightening, and then the tails lightening. You can rock hard enough using the knee and hip joints to lift tips then tails, all the while maintaining shin/tongue contact. Find center while not losing shin-tongue contact. Center is home base.

@Mike King, people who keep the shin always in contact with the front of the boot ski use the whole ski, just as you do. But they are maintaining fore-aft balance over their skis with a different type of control over those ankles than you. And, as one of those closed-ankle skiers, I can say that my ankles do sometimes open and close, a little. But not much. And with purpose when it accomplishes something specific, not with every turn.

 

[Mike King]

Maintaining constant shin-tongue contact definitely does not equal light heels inside the boot and a tail that washes out. That is, if the skier's range of dorsiflexion is enough. Just keep the heel firmly planted as you dorsiflex enough to get that shin-tongue contact.

When a skier controls the foot and ankle this way while skiing, then it's where upper body's CoM hovers over the ski that determines whether or not the tail or tip washes or grips. This is most often controlled by the skier working with joints above the ankle.

Test: Static on skis. Dorsiflex/close ankles to get shin-tongue contact while firmly seating the heel on the bootboard. Then move the CoM fore-aft while keeping those ankles closed, feeling the tips lightening, and then the tails lightening. You can rock hard enough to lift tips then tails, all the while maintaining shin/tongue contact. Find center. This is home base, with shin-tongue contact.

@Mike King, people who keep the shin always in contact with the front of the boot ski use the whole ski, just as you do. But they are maintaining fore-aft balance over their skis with a different type of control over those ankles than you. And, as one of those closed-ankle skiers, I can say that my ankles do sometimes open and close, a little. But not much. And with purpose when it accomplishes something specific, not with every turn.

Understood. Just realize that by trying to do everything (or even most) with joints up the kinetic chain, you are using grosser movements with less fine motor control. There’s been a lot of coaching about keeping ankles out of the equation, but it has become my belief that this coaching is biomechanically crippled. Purportedly US ski team men have been removing material from their boots to give more ankle mobility, not less.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Sounds like most agree where the COM needs to be, but have different opinions on the right way to get there.

I used to be more of a tongue pusher, then relaxed a little. However I think that because my new boots have significantly less ramp than the old boots that I had for many years, I need something to get my body in the right place, and the tongue seems to be working for me because that's the way I was taught in the first place. Not pushing hard or over pressuring the tongue, but maintaining contact. The bootfitter thought my stance was fine and said the boots fit well, so I really believe I just need to adjust to the new boots.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Sounds like most agree where the COM needs to be, but have different opinions on the right way to get there.....

Agree. Personal anatomy factors in. Also ramp angle... delta... femur length... binding placement.
Also important is preferred manor of turn initiation and completion.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....purportedly US ski team men have been removing material from their boots to give more ankle mobility, not less.

I have a question. I am seriously curious. Material removed where, and for what kind of ankle mobility? Left and right of the ankle bones? Above the ankle around the lower leg, front, back, and both sides? At the base of the tongue (on the tongue, not on the shell), just where the lower leg rises at the front of the foot? Other? Are we talking about technical boots or speed boots?

 

[jack97]

Sounds like most agree where the COM needs to be, but have different opinions on the right way to get there.

I am part of the most in terms of where the CoM needs to be but disagree with how it needs to be supported. Without closing the ankles while absorbing the bump, the small of the back usually bends forward to keep the CoM over center thus prevent it from going to aft. If you can't visually see this, look at beginning section of TG's vid from post 3 where he explains the mechanics of this.

Along with absorption range, unless one trains this region of the body, there are consequences to using the small of the back to absorb when skiing the mogul trails all day.

 

[Chris V.]

McPhail, when he instrumented WC skiers, found virtually no cuff pressure from those skiers.

Food for thought! If the forces aren't being transmitted through the cuff, it must be happening through the sole of the foot. A great source of feedback is to focus on the sensations in the soles of our feet. We have a high concentratiin of nerve endings there. There's a reason for that.

 

[HardDaysNight]

[

I have a question. I am seriously curious. Material removed where, and for what kind of ankle mobility? Left and right of the ankle bones? Above the ankle around the lower leg, front, back, and both sides? At the base of the tongue (on the tongue, not on the shell), just where the lower leg rises at the front of the foot? Other? Are we talking about technical boots or speed boots?

Good questions. I would have thought that by the stage of development necessary for an athlete to make the US Ski Team he would have long since figured out how his boots should fit! But perhaps not, especially if guided by McPhail whose writings are impenetrable to say the least.

 

[jack97]

Food for thought! If the forces aren't being transmitted through the cuff, it must be happening through the sole of the foot. A great source of feedback is to focus on the sensations in the soles of our feet. We have a high concentratiin of nerve endings there. There's a reason for that.

This is the reason I seek flat light, its a great way to hone those sensations.

 

[markojp]

This is the reason I seek flat light, its a great way to hone those sensations.

Hmmmm, so that's why everyone is moving to Seattle.