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Smear

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It's a priority thing. We could ask @Smear to start start skiing just like Marcel but that may not happen before the end of this season.

Whhaaat, of course I can ski like him. I'm even wearing his old suit so people might get confused. It' very bright WHITE and hard to keep clean. A bit over the top, but I had to get something special as a 40 year old gift for myself :ogcool:
 

razie

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...there is a lot of stuff here... I think there is some agreement on fore/aft, separation (I think geepers sees a still upper body, but I don't), extension / stepping off the ski etc.

It's interesting to look at cause/effect/fix... a lot of these are caused by others.

I normally start from the feet up - is there ski performance and are the feet working? What are they doing if yes and why not, if not! Are there glaring alignment problems? His feet are not really working, because of that early extension, so that's one thing to fix: you need some flexion to allow the feet to help with balance and edging. I think that got a little better later on - there is still significant early extension, but not that big of a hop like in the beginning, if I'm not mistaken. I didn't go back to look...

Given that he's in gates, tactics are important. He was often late and that makes one struggle to stay on the treadmill. You're late because you're struggling but also struggle because you're late - gotta address both sometimes, it's quite common and weird how these two interact - so I kept pointing out the line cues, to fix his line and timing and allow the technique to develop - I think it got better with different skis and as he worked on it. Ideally, of course, you develop technique outside of gates... and then dial-in the tactics and timing in gates...

I know from experience that it's not easy to significantly change the feet and flexing situation quickly, so I also pointed out the separation at times. I find it often easier to address that in a gates environment and it also helps allow more ski performance, more balance and range of motion and thus help you work on the feet... and again, him being only on a course, that's sometimes easier to work on. If he was free-skiing more, I would spend more time to get the feet right first: balance, flexing, pull back, dorsiflex, foot tipping etc.

cheers
 
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geepers

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From the forward and jammed position on the outside leg, with lots of tip lead, flexing to release is not a option. And late weight transfer is not an option, need to get off the jammed leg that got left behind.

Yep, couldn't quite see how that was going to work with that old outside foot so far back.

I think what we see with the too far forward on outside leg and UP issues, is that I've made myself very dependent of using lots of outside knee angulation toward the very end of the turns. Both to keep the line and to set up a more divergent path of skis and COM at the end to get relatively fast into the next turn, despite of the UP transition.

I get past the gate and see I need more direction change. From a too wide stance I crank the outside knee in. The outside ski slows down. I get more forward on it, the ski slow down even more and I get even more forward on it.

During the first runs in the gates I tried keeping a hard focus on inside pullback. Well that didn't work.

Maybe not let that outside foot get back in the 1st place?

Worked on this in my own skiing through a fair part of this season. The key is to keep feet underneath me (in the fore/aft plane). That way the front foot pretty much stays where I need it - I think light shin contact on that boot and lift the knee towards the inside armpit. (Aside: I've got a looong way for that knee to go!)

Interestingly in one of the CSIA courses, the convener (a highly qualified CSIA L4) asked what we were working on in our skiing. Gave my piece about being forward at the top of the top of the turn and progressively moving back through the fall line and bottom of the turn. He said he just thinks about standing in the middle of the outside ski and that it sounded complicated to have to keep tabs on different balance through the turn. Guess what? Standing in the middle of the ski throughout works pretty damn well and there's a lot less to think about / movement patterns to ingrain.

Mind, 'middle of the ski' is a dynamic concept - it is the relationship between BoS and CoM and has to take account of snow conditions. In slower conditions (slush, thick pow) it's going to be a little back of where it is in firm snow to keep those feet coming through. And it is a challenge when conditions are changing run to run - like warm day thaw.

Loading the shovel at the top of the turn does seem to be part of the orthodoxy. I wonder if it is overdone.
 

geepers

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I think geepers sees a still upper body, but I don't

That's part of the CSIA training - focus on the priority rather than every issue. There isn't time in a lesson to fix everything. (In a Teach Assess we get around 50-55 minutes to improve the skiing of other L3 candidates - which is a tough assignment as most of 'em ski reasonably well and some much better than the person being assessed.)

In any event I'd be interested in your thoughts - if you were on snow right now what would you specifically propose for the next run?
 
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Smear

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Maybe not let that outside foot get back in the 1st place?
Well you can think of it as a analogy to an A-framed outrigger turn. In an A-framed outrigger turn you get high edge angle on the outside ski by cheating with supporting the weight on the inside. With massive tip lead I'm able to get lots of forward pressure on the outside ski by supporting it using a support of the inside ski as a fore-aft outrigger.

By combining A-framed outrigger turn with massive tip lead I get double effect and are able to drag the outside ski around in surprisingly short arcs, and get around the course in something that to the uninitiated looks like a carved turn. But apparently the pugski ski school crowd is not fooled by that... ;)
 

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@Smear, you have an unusual way of turning and it seems you know that. Are you satisfied with your times in the gates? If not, what's your plan to get faster?
 

razie

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In any event I'd be interested in your thoughts - if you were on snow right now what would you specifically propose for the next run?

I should find the time to go through the L3 at some point, it sounds interesting...

Based on the OP's last video, GS4 ? He's got 3 big issues:
a) that big hop-step putting him on long legs and far in the back seat - LF has a good analysis with snapshots - he's not using all joints and the timing and flow are not there, in CSIA lingo...
b) related - no foot tipping, is not leading the turning effort with the lower body
c) super rotation, i.e. no still upper body, i.e. no separation, thus no angulation which robs all the performance from the ski, so he's skidding each turn. I.e. no grip.

So there you have it, very CSIA certified ;) Did I pass?

These are his biggest issues. So what do you do if you had one hour with him on snow right now? I would say a) and b) and c) in order, depending on how fast he's progressing. Would you try to give him a notion of what each is and how to work on it or just insist on one for the entire hour?

For L3, I think you'd work on a) by introducing flexing and dorsiflexing. You'd quickly show him some flexing in short turns and keeping the feet under the body and then give him some tasks, say drag the poles and get him doing that + feedback + repeat. Then switch to some dorsiflexing tasks, just show him to keep the boots under the hips (or ankles closed) while releasing. Keeping him skiing with tasks and feedback for 2-3 runs and that's probably enough to pass your L3... probably not ideal, but at that performance level, that's what it is...

:)

p.s. quick question: how many credits do you get for the training portion? Is it enough to take the exam or do you need to take some more stuff?
 
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geepers

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I should find the time to go through the L3 at some point, it sounds interesting...

Based on the OP's last video, GS4 ? He's got 3 big issues:
a) that big hop-step putting him on long legs and far in the back seat - LF has a good analysis with snapshots - he's not using all joints and the timing and flow are not there, in CSIA lingo...
b) related - no foot tipping, is not leading the turning effort with the lower body
c) super rotation, i.e. no still upper body, i.e. no separation, thus no angulation which robs all the performance from the ski, so he's skidding each turn. I.e. no grip.

So there you have it, very CSIA certified ;) Did I pass?

These are his biggest issues. So what do you do if you had one hour with him on snow right now? I would say a) and b) and c) in order, depending on how fast he's progressing. Would you try to give him a notion of what each is and how to work on it or just insist on one for the entire hour?

For L3, I think you'd work on a) by introducing flexing and dorsiflexing. You'd quickly show him some flexing in short turns and keeping the feet under the body and then give him some tasks, say drag the poles and get him doing that + feedback + repeat. Then switch to some dorsiflexing tasks, just show him to keep the boots under the hips (or ankles closed) while releasing. Keeping him skiing with tasks and feedback for 2-3 runs and that's probably enough to pass your L3... probably not ideal, but at that performance level, that's what it is...

:)

p.s. quick question: how many credits do you get for the training portion? Is it enough to take the exam or do you need to take some more stuff?

Thanks for sharing your take.

Way above my pay grade to give you any feedback - I made a somewhat different assessment (see above) but as far as whose right, the only thing that would matter is: could we help OP's skiing. Probably more than one way to do that.

In an CSIA L3 Teach exam you are going to have 2 or 3 other 'students' who likely will each have different issues. In the hour you'll get maybe 2 or 3 runs which includes lift time and at least a good part of the 1st run assessing their skiing to start with. Between picking a ski improvement task that will benefit all of them, (has to be the same task, there's not enough time to take each student through a separate task), explaining and demo-ing what you want them to do, giving an individual focus for each them as they do it, watching them perform it, giving individual feedback, varying the task in some way when needed, keeping everybody safe from meandering members of the general public... well believe me you are very unlikely to get to point b and no chance of getting to point c.

Your lesson outline is probably realistic enough allowing for the extra students and think task (with varies) rather than too many different tasks, all of which would need another explanation/demo, etc. That clock ticks down fast.

The advice I've taken on board is that you have to stick with a task until you either see an improvement or you decide to vary or change in some way 'cause it is not working. Just giving the students a notion of what's needed would not be enough.

There 30 credits available for doing the CSIA Advanced Teach course (2 days). It's a pre-req for the the L3 Teach exam. Need 40 credits all up - 10 for Teaching Kids will get you there.

BTW this time around I passed the L3 Ski but again missed the Teach. 10 of us took the Ski - 2 passed. 9 took the Teach - no-one passed.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Best of luck on the exam re-take, Geepers. Will you do that this season, or do you have to wait for next winter?
 

geepers

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Well you can think of it as a analogy to an A-framed outrigger turn. In an A-framed outrigger turn you get high edge angle on the outside ski by cheating with supporting the weight on the inside. With massive tip lead I'm able to get lots of forward pressure on the outside ski by supporting it using a support of the inside ski as a fore-aft outrigger.

By combining A-framed outrigger turn with massive tip lead I get double effect and are able to drag the outside ski around in surprisingly short arcs, and get around the course in something that to the uninitiated looks like a carved turn. But apparently the pugski ski school crowd is not fooled by that... ;)

Yep. Can't help but think that may not be the optimum approach to getting performance from the skis. Which I'm sure you know.

Was going to wait for your next MA vid before commenting however this vid seems to me to be highly relevant. Especially watch the way Deb Armstrong rotates her legs (in the pelvis). This is the way to develop early edge, instead of crushing the front of the boot. Goes with that 45 degree concept.


And then, as the forces build, incline into the turn, remembering to retain separation and increase hip angulation as the turn continues.

(Of course, somewhat less challenging when we don't have to make a gate.)
 
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Smear

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Thanks for the dryland videos. Not opposed to doing some dryland exersizes. Made a slantboard ala Harb with carpet last summer but didn't manage to get enough motivation to use it. Perhaps I will in october-november this year when I'm ski hungry but home resort has not opened yet.

Had the last day of skiing at the home resort today. On Wednesdays they open at 0700, and I was hoping for a real hard surface for free skiing on GS-skis since it was a freezing night after a warm afternoon. Getting in a last quality session before work.

Haven't free skied on GS-skis this season other than just before/after gate skiing. Weekdays resort opens at 10:00 or 07:00 so when I get there on normal days at 19:30 for gate practice, the slope has been skied for 9-12 hours and has been lying in the sun all afternoon. That usually means very poor conditions for GS-practice outside of the course, especially late in season. In the courses we get ok conditions since we scrape away all the soft snow until we get down to something hard. Sometimes they add salt when needed. On days without gates I've been skiing on SL-skis or monster 83. Agree that skills and technique need work outside of the course, but have been thinking that skills practiced on other skis will transfer. But not so sure anymore...

So used the slope where we normally put up the course. The snow was unfortunately pretty soft, not cold enough during night or it got too cold before grooming. Limited myself to the corridor where GS course normally is and kept the turns at that size. So free skiing on GS-skis while focusing on flex to release and late weight transfer and ending the turns with untipping and flexing of a weighted outside ski. Have used that focus a lot this season when skiing on SL-skis or pseudo SL-skis (monster 83, 16.5m) and have felt that it has worked very well. But now on proper GS-skis on a soft groomer it didn't work at all. On the first runs I kept ending up out of balance to the inside at the top of the turns, sometimes with the outside ski shooting out. Almost ended up in the net a few times. Compared to my other skis, the GS-skis doesn't turn much. So when coming out of the transition with inclination one need to counterbalance and tip HARD immediately. Even if the motions are similar it's a very different feel for me to do this on GS-skis compared to my other skis . And on a soft surface it was even more important to stay over the skis. It did get better during the hour that I worked on this, but I realize I need a lot of work to master this flex-to-release, late- weight-transfer stuff on GS-skis enough to use it in the course and the good bit of that work has to be done on GS-skis. The DIRT it that different.

Switched to my old GS cheaters (178cm, 18.4m) and continued with the same movements and the same DIRT. If I was blindfolded I would have sworn that I was on 155 SL-skis.... A lot of energy and fun compared to the GS-skis.

On my last run on the proper GS-ski I did a run with UP-and-over and early weight transfer in all turns. They feel more fun and energetic skied that way and it is much easier to stay in balance when skiing more connected/less floating in transition. But when needing to decrease the radius/space used I'm then back to grinding out the bottom half of the turn with outside knee and I guess we agree that this is slow...

So in the words of @razie

- focus on foot tipping and counter strong as soon as you're on a flat ski
Ideally, of course, you develop technique outside of gates... and then dial-in the tactics and timing in gates...

Conclusion is that for next year I'm going to prioritize to get more days free skiing on GS-skis in good conditions. That means getting there at 0900 on some weekends when it opens and using the hour before it gets too crowded to ski on GS-skis. And hopefully some Wednesday mornings 7-9 if i can squeeze that in with work and other obligations. That was a great way of starting a weekday :ogcool:
:daffy:

Soon Easter holiday and it will involve some days of resort skiing. Hope to get a video or two of skiing on the monster 83.
 
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razie

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:thumb:

True GS skis are alergic to soft snow - there are some magic pills for that, but they're hard to find :eek:

Up and over feels better, more confident and it's easier for balance, it's basically taking the easy way out :) but it slows down the transition and the tipping and engagement into the next turn... so even if you think you get there more forward, you'll be there later... not to mention that on ice, the engagement will get even worse...

The 83 Monsters are good skis, very much like a masters GS ski for softer snow - don't stop practicing ;) They're more particular to where you stand on them than the 88s, so spend some time finding that sweet-spot and then stand on it!
 
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Smear

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The 2019/20 kind of had a slow start with much other things than alpine skiing going on. Then I got going, it was just before everything closed down... The covid season 2020/21 was horrible. With most indoors actitivites closed people turned outdoors and combined with proximity rules on lifts it caused massive iftlines. And I never got started with masters training since the restrictions kept changing. Not much skiing that season. This season has been better and I have been training GS once a week. I'm still a mess in GS as soon as it get's a little bit icy, steep and/or rutted. We haven't had timing or video on trainings this year and no races, but feels like not much of a change since 2018/19.

But I had video free skiing last weekend. Skiing spring slush on head monster 83.


Filmed by a 9 year old. This run didn't feel good, borderline to steep and timing felt off, but it is what I have ;-)


Looks very recognisable from MA1-3, but a bit more composed. Still dragging the outside ski behind in the last half of the turn and some divergence and lifting back in place going on... Also see some attempts at flexing by dipping the chest forward that doesn't look very functional. More of a good morning than a squat.
 
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Smear

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Main feedback from my coach this season has been more core activation, less anterior pelvic tilt, and keeping the upper body a bit more leaned forward and not so upright. And not losing that core activation when things get icy and rutted in GS. Easier said than done...

Managed to crack a rib and after that keeping that tension when things get rugged didn't work that well. Then did another rib on the other side 4 weeks later so not much progress on core activation in last part of the season...

Focus at the moment is fixing tip splay, diverging skis, lazy inside foot syndrome. Same thing by different names.

Partly inspired by one of the random aussies:

But not really a new focus for me.
The divergence is still there even when the ski is lifted like at the top of the turns when the ski is light. Actually seems to happen even more when the ski is not grounded. I think I end up pointing the inside knee in a bit (external rotation of femur ) but not tipping the ankle toward the little to edge enough (rotating the subtalar joint internally). End result is divergence. And then when the inside ski get weighted later in the turn, the divergence creates the widening of the stance, loss of outside ski and inside ski slipping too far forward. I think the sensation I should be chasing is like when doing javelin turns with the inside knee pointed a bit inward but rotation in the ankle is responsible for pointing the ski across. Sort of a tension of opposing rotations. Did that make sense?

Good to go into the indoor season with a clear focus of something specific to fix that really needs fixing ;-)
 

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The divergence is still there even when the ski is lifted like at the top of the turns when the ski is light. Actually seems to happen even more when the ski is not grounded. I think I end up pointing the inside knee in a bit (external rotation of femur ) but not tipping the ankle toward the little to edge enough (rotating the subtalar joint internally). End result is divergence.....I think the sensation I should be chasing is like when doing javelin turns with the inside knee pointed a bit inward but rotation in the ankle is responsible for pointing the ski across. Sort of a tension of opposing rotations. Did that make sense?
I think there may be come miscommunication going on between your sources and you. Tell me what you think of what I'm posting here. It's possible I'm reading your posts wrong and you don't need the suggestions I'm providing.

Here goes....

Tipping the new inside foot to the little toe edge rotates the foot so that the toes point inward. So tipping that foot, at the ankle, to the LTE, points the toes of that foot in the opposite direction of the new turn.
inversion eversion image.png

This is not a problem. It's an opportunity.

Yes, you are not effectively tipping your inside foot to the little toe edge. To tip that foot to the LTE more effectively, you can take advantage of this information about the toe-pointing.

Point your new inside foot's toes in the opposite direction of the new turn, to the inside of the new turn, as you tip that foot. This sounds counter-intuitive, and it is, but it works. The toe pointing exaggerates/enhances to tipping.

If on the other hand you are attempting to get that foot tipped to the LTE and at the same time rotating the foot to point in the direction of the new turn, the rotation will cancel out the tipping, or at least reduce it.

As you point the new inside foot's toes to the inside and tip to the LTE, roll that knee outward and down, towards the snow. You don't want to be rolling the new inside knee inward towards the other knee. That will delete any good tipping that you are doing at the level of the foot.

In the post above, you speak of "a tension of opposing rotations." It sounds like you have that tension backwards. Try doing it this way: rotate foot in, rotate femur out. This will get that foot tipped, keep it close to the other foot, and eliminate that A-frame.

The sensation you will be chasing is going bowlegged while inviting a sprained ankle.
 
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geepers

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^ @LiquidFeet - this one has me a little confused... normally your posts are very clear so maybe be my problem.

So a couple of questions in red below for clarity...

Tipping the new inside foot to the little toe edge rotates the foot so that the toes point inward. So tipping that foot, at the ankle, to the LTE, points the toes of that foot in the opposite direction of the new turn.
inversion eversion image.png

This is not a problem. It's an opportunity.

Yes, you are not effectively tipping your inside foot to the little toe edge. To tip that foot to the LTE more effectively, you can take advantage of this information about the toe-pointing.

Point your new inside foot's toes in the opposite direction of the new turn, to the inside of the new turn, as you tip that foot.
So in a turn to the right, the new inside toes should be pointing to the left? To the outside of the turn rather than to the inside of the turn as written?
This sounds counter-intuitive, and it is, but it works. The toe pointing exaggerates/enhances to tipping.

If on the other hand you are attempting to get that foot tipped to the LTE and at the same time rotating the foot to point in the direction of the new turn, the rotation will cancel out the tipping, or at least reduce it.

As you point the new inside foot's toes to the inside (Inside of the turn or the inside of the body?) and tip to the LTE, roll that knee outward and down, towards the snow. You don't want to be rolling the new inside knee inward towards the other knee. That will delete any good tipping that you are doing at the level of the foot.

In the post above, you speak of "a tension of opposing rotations." It sounds like you have that tension backwards. Try doing it this way: rotate foot in, rotate femur out. This will get that foot tipped, keep it close to the other foot, and eliminate that A-frame.

The sensation you will be chasing is going bowlegged while inviting a sprained ankle.

Main feedback from my coach this season has been more core activation, less anterior pelvic tilt, and keeping the upper body a bit more leaned forward and not so upright. And not losing that core activation when things get icy and rutted in GS. Easier said than done...

Managed to crack a rib and after that keeping that tension when things get rugged didn't work that well. Then did another rib on the other side 4 weeks later so not much progress on core activation in last part of the season...

Focus at the moment is fixing tip splay, diverging skis, lazy inside foot syndrome. Same thing by different names.

Partly inspired by one of the random aussies:

But not really a new focus for me.


Good to go into the indoor season with a clear focus of something specific to fix that really needs fixing ;-)

Man, look after dem ribs! :geek:

Was wondering if you'd tried this BPS lesson? Which relates very much to where the feet are pointed in the opposite direction of the turn about to be started. Mini-lesson shown below however the 20 minute (approx) longer version on their web site has more detail. Personally found this a very good way to understand the feet pointing thing. And results in a very nice feeling carved short turn for intermediate terrain. (Counter-intuitive that what starts as a pivot drill ends up with carving. But, hey, BPS. :)



On the inside knee coming to the inside of the body... That's from BPS? Rightly or wrongly I took this to happen later in the turn, as the inside leg continues to shorten, but not at the top of the turn where leg tipping should basically be symmetrical. Only had a small opportunity to try that our back in Oz season - it seemed to help. But only applied well after the turn was under way and that inside leg was well flexed.
 
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Smear

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I think there may be come miscommunication going on between your sources and you. Tell me what you think of what I'm posting here. It's possible I'm reading your posts wrong and you don't need the suggestions I'm providing.

I think we are in agreement. Read description below again regarding the divergence and how it relates to amounts of rotation in the femur and in the ankle.
The divergence is still there even when the ski is lifted like at the top of the turns when the ski is light. Actually seems to happen even more when the ski is not grounded. I think I end up pointing the inside knee in a bit too much (external rotation of femur ) but not tipping the ankle toward the little toe edge enough (rotating the subtalar joint internally). End result is divergence.

The usual explanation for divergence is often too much weight on the inside ski. I feel it gets worse when the inside ski is unweighted and has no weight. And I get less divergence when trying to actively put a lot of weight on the inside ski. Blasmephy I know, but makes sense to an ex tele skier. More weight on the inside ski is the standard prescription drug against "lazy inside leg syndrome" in telemark skiers. Like when the inside is not edged and there is too much tip lead in the opposite direction (!). But I don't want to ski with a lot of weight on the inside ski so perhaps a bit of a side track, but also perhaps a useful excersise.

Gellie's explanation just lined up so well with how I described it to myself in this thread in 2018 (the qoute), in terms of how this divergence feels to me and how it relates to rotation in ankle and rotation of femur in the hip of the inside leg. The subscription BPS version of the "Fixing tip splay" video is a bit more spesific.

I'm really duckfooted and my legs and feet naturally points outward. The understanding is not the problem, that was there in 2018, But when you are duckfooted then it takes a good bit of effort to not have them point outward and to get to a point where you are able to do that subconsciously in all skiing situations. Thinking of it as a cause and not yet another symptom helps commitment.

The prescribed fix a bit more tension in the muscles that rotates the inside ankle out of the turn, and to avoid too much knee pointing (external femur rotation) into the turn of the same leg. Gellie likened it to embedding habits like skiing with you core activated. In need to do that too...

I have an indoor ski hill 25 min drive from home. It's short (80 vertikal meters) and the lift is very slow, so it's not a place for getting a lot of milage. But for some tasks like this it can be perfect, no distractions or temptations to just ski. The more hung on details, the better...

So just making a commitment to fix these issues before next winter season. And saying it out loud helps commitment, thanks for listening ;-)
 
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