MA request fo

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Smear, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. dbostedo

    dbostedo Asst. Gathermeister--Big Sky Team Gathermeister

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    Is that actually possible? Wouldn't it imply that your inside and outside legs are exactly the same length during the turn?

    (Or maybe "pretty much" encompasses that - that there is flexion and extension, but just a small amount. In that case, the contention above still holds.)
     
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  2. mdf

    mdf back to being an ordinary Gatheree Skier

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    Sure it's possible - lean against a wall and try it. Sideways angles at your hips match angle of feet on the floor. (Speaking loosely -- lets not get into femur heads vs hips definitions). I naturally wind up with most of my weight on my inside foot, but can change that by actively rotating my hips without bending my knees.

    Not judging whether that would be a reasonable thing to do on snow, just that it is possible.
     
  3. James

    James Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    We're just talking about transition, not the turn. And actions. Actual length may indeed vary, but on a level surface, you can go left to right with same length if hips are kept level.

    People are so set in thinking they must flex, they must extend, or a combination. Not true. Again, talking actions. Try it. Now does one leg length increase passively in the body going over scenario? Probably.
    Then you can actively shorten the inside if you want and stand against the outside.

    Relevant to the op, all the flexing at transition (of the downhill ski) in the world won't work if your body is still uphill. You can see this in that racing clip too. You're not in position to go over the skis as you release the edge. You have to push and pop. The pushing and popping probably came first as a way to ski. Now it's deeply ingrained.

    Try to make some turns basically doing nothing. Concentrate on your body position. As you near the end of the turn you're already starting to move downhill into the next turn. At transition there's no stopping or hitch in body movement, go right over into the next. Your edges will change.

    Try doing the above in railroad tracks. Then do it in a limited width space. Say 10-15 m. (Depends on sidecut of the skis too) Limiting the width makes you think about when/where your body is, the edges, where transition will be. If you wait too long you can't maintain railroad tracks and will be forced to twist the skis. Have someone watch you. Many people think they are doing it but they're twisting/steering the skis in actuality.
     
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  4. dbostedo

    dbostedo Asst. Gathermeister--Big Sky Team Gathermeister

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    Well I think this is the whole issue we're having right now (or at least I am). I'm not differentiating passive or active - just whether or not the legs change length at all. In that case I think maybe we're in complete agreement.

    (I.e. your legs when turning have one leg shorter than the other. If you turn the other direction, that reverses. If I was turning left, with my left leg shorter than my right, and then turned right without changing leg length, my left ski would have to be in the air. Right? Perhaps the premise of one leg being shorter than the other in a turn is wrong?)
     
  5. James

    James Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    Stop. You're getting lost in the turn and world philosphy of the turn. We're talking transition.
    Yes, the inside leg is shorter in a turn. That's not the point.
    The point is one can start a turn with essentially doing nothing with the legs in regard to flexing/extending actions. The body goes over taking the legs, boots, and tipping the skis.

    Now one can add tipping movements of the feet to the above and all sorts of other things. But understand the simple concept. This is the x-move and still holds no matter how sophisticated the movements in transition get.

    Essentially, if you try to turn downhill while still uphill, you're going to do some funky things to make the turn.

    What I'm talking about is key to skiing powder.
     


  6. dbostedo

    dbostedo Asst. Gathermeister--Big Sky Team Gathermeister

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    Well now I'm super lost (or rather, I suspect a 2 minute actual conversation, versus online, would clear things up, as I think we're still talking about 2 different things and agree more than it appears.)

    Anyway we're way off topic, so I think we should stop here.
     
  7. James

    James Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    It is the topic. Op's transition.
    You should go to Highlands and do a Do Nothing clinic with Bob.
     
  8. dbostedo

    dbostedo Asst. Gathermeister--Big Sky Team Gathermeister

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    ^^^
    Well I think the topic was becoming my confusion over the OP's transition, rather than helping the OP. (And I would love to do another lesson with Bob - and if it somehow worked out that you were around to join again, that would be cool... I'm skiing a lot differently these days than I did that day.)
     
  9. Thread Starter
    TS
    Smear

    Smear Putting on skis Skier

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    Hmmmm... @dbostedo I feel a need to rerail my own thread. I'll do that by explaining my thoughts to you :)

    I think what is making people hot in their panties is the expressions like:
    -flex to release
    -extend to release

    And then making them categories sort of implies that you need to do either to swap side into the new turn.

    If you look at my transitions in the videos they are a type that is initiated by shifting the weight over to the inside ski. This changes the BOS-COM relationship instantly and facilitates swapping sides. Shifting the weight over to the inside ski can be done by making the inside leg longer, outside leg shorter or some combo where the inside leg end up long relative to the outside leg.

    But there are other ways to swap sides than shifting weight over to the inside ski. In outside ski one-ski carving or in white pass turns/weighted release variations the inside doesn't have a role in the transition. So one does not get that instant change in BOS-COM relationship. In many situations a turn is best done without a early weight transfer so this is not just exercises but relevant for real skiing. Releasing can be facilitated by untipping the outside foot, but also by increasing upper body angulation. An often missed detail is that untipping at the ankle of the outside foot is actually a movement that will rotate the body toward the outside of the turn. This creates more counter and gets more of an "angulation effect" even without additional upper body movements. Helps swapping sides, moving over the BOS. I'm hoping that some of the problems I have with lack of counter toward the end of the turn will get better when I learn to untip my outside foot toward the end of the turn instead of clinging on to the big toe edge to the very end,

    When I end up at the end of the turn with the legs far apart sideways and fore aft, outside knee heavily tipped in, and far forward on the outside leg my options are very limited. Releasing by untipping the outside foot would be very hard from that position, as would flexing the outside leg as explained by Razie. So the only way out is a sharp up movement on the inside leg.

    Now why do I end up in that position. If the alignment is too soft it could be that driving the outside knee in, is a unconscious compensation "searching for grip" by tipping it more and more over to the big toe edge toward the end of the turn. I this case the strong up movement on the inside leg can be seen as a compensation or a way of coping with the too knock-kneed alignment. Or it could be a result of a messed up movement pattern. Like too strong big toe focus and messed up way of tipping the inside ski, pointing it in the new turn direction (femur rotation) instead of tipping it at the ankle. I'm sort of hoping for alignment being the main cause, since that is much easier to fix than rewiring my skiing. Thanks to @Josh Matta, @markojp, @HeluvaSkier , @razie and @LiquidFeet for pushing me to take a serious look at my alignment. I'm really hoping some easy improvements can be made by there....

    Resort decided that they will open, I will be skiing this weekend :daffy:
     
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  10. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    Here's the deal, even when you get your alignment sorted out, you'll have a period of transitioning into new movement patterns. The good end of this flight path will take a bit of time and work, but in the end it will be very worth your while. (Chronically under edged, you're having to tip your ski up for grip and to gain some semblance of platform angle. The only way you can do this is by tipping your knee agressively and rotating your femur inward. To do this, your hip will close. You've finally gotten on edge, but now you have to get off it and transition. Your big rotary moves have to be undone. This typically happens with a upper body initiation ...head, shoulder, and an 'up'... sound familiar?).

    There are a load of pretty accomplished 'comfortable all over the mountain' sort of skiers that live on the above, so does it mean you're a poor skier? No. Matter of fact, I'd say you're a wickedly good compensator. Once the lateral alignment is dialed, your 'big move' emperor will be standing buck naked in the wind with nothing to do. Tailoring the new clothes will take some time and attention, but man, are you going to look good in the new threads!

    :beercheer:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  11. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Out on the slopes Instructor

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    ^ Wow. That is the best explanation of the connection between alignment needs and technical issues I've ever read.
     
  12. JESinstr

    JESinstr Lvl 3 1973 Skier

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    And here's a lateral alignment drill that will take you to the front entrance of the tailor's shop.....Thanks Greg @HeluvaSkier for making this!

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  13. Thread Starter
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    Smear

    Smear Putting on skis Skier

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    Two days of skiing this weekend. On Sunday I spent most of the time focusing on releasing by untipping the outside foot and then continue to let that foot lead the tipping throughout the next turn on it's little toe edge. Tried to focused on NOTHING else but that-

    -no focus on big toe edging, no effort or intent on carving cleanly, but the skis where nicely engaging anyway
    -no focus on fore/aft. But tried not letting the inside ski slip forward
    -no focus on weight distribution. No early transfer or efforts for balancing on the outside ski. But tried keeping a narrowish stance.
    -no focus on doing "anything" with the upper body. No vampirating, @James ;-) Tried to let the only movement timing the turn be when to start the untipping. Starting to think about the untipping at the fall line would make the turns shallow. Delaying the thought about untipping a bit longer would make turns more complete.
    -no focus on flexing or extending any leg, no early transfer.

    But as speed would increase and taking the turns more across the hill the "virtual bump" would make it's appearance and then making it necessary and to blend the untipping of the outside ski with flexing of the same leg. Vaulting over a long outside leg just feels wrong and almost painful even at surprisingly low speed when staying away from early weight transfer.

    Makes me think about whats going in the videos MA1-MA3. Early weight transfer even with violent inside leg extension, sort of feels like managing pressure or at least somehow reduces the need for it. The medicine ball has started accelerating upwards. The first violent pop on the inside stops the vaulting over the outside ski. Rest of the inside leg extension is more of a slight addition to the already upwards motion of the com. Sort of explaining to myself of how doing it wrong can feel so good. But realize it's a dead end, unless one has a lot of space or want stay at low edge angles forever.

    Flexing in the transition has previously sort of just appeared on it own when forces are large enough that the early transfer looses it's function. It but with a very narrow spectrum of success. To little energy, no flexing, and slightly steeper and it would all fall fall apart. So it feels like I have found a way of working with flexing in more controllable setting.

    Have previously worked on early transfer to a bent outside leg without extending the inside. Well it works then and there but so far no success in getting that embedded as a habit.

    Felt like I skied like a beginner at the green hill today. When I tried to drastically up the energy the vampire would reappear, and probably with a whole package of stuff as @Doby Man suggested. But when slowly increasing the intensity it sort of felt like it worked without reintroducing the old habits. So I feel like I'm on the right track. But still on a green slope so a long way ahead....

    Alignment:
    Have made the +1 degrees knees out compared to MA1 and MA2 permanent under the binding. And played with an additional temporary 1 degree shim just under the heel.

    Skis I'm using are 155 FIS SL with 64 mm waist, 0.5 degrees base bevel, raceplates and in addition 6mm of stacked lifters under toe to reduce delta on left ski and 12 mm toe + 6mm heel on right ski to compensate for leg length difference. (~18mm by x-ray) This is probably not the easiest setup to take off edge at the end of the turn.Especially for someone who chronically rotates their hip into the turn. It also probably a setup where being too bowlegged can quickly lead issues at the top of the turn. So likely a narrow spectrum of workable alignments.

    Going +2 knees out felt like crazy holy cowboy mad edging power. But somehow it felt good in a guilty pleasures kind of way :) Strong reaction to the slightest amount of big toe action. Perhaps that is how a FIS SL should feel like and I've just gotten too used to a overly soft boot setup?

    Tried the lift and tilt inside ski maneuver outlined in Harb's alignment material on both days. On saturday +1 would brush and +2 would rail. On sunday with more grippy snow +1 would rail too. Have brand new pair of Monster 83 in the basement. Just going to get inserts in there so that they can double up as tele ski. Curious to see if wider waist, lower binding and 1 degrees base bevel will change the feel of +1 vs +2.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  14. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    yeah if +2 feels better use it...my guess if you took video you are just straight and not bow legged
     
  15. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    Sounds like you are on the right track. One suggestion you might try -- instead of thinking about tipping the edges down, try thinking about lifting the edges up. See what it does for you.

    Mike
     
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  16. Tip Nippley

    Tip Nippley Booting up Inactive

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    I like that! It sounds similar to one of my analogies - "skiing on the downhill edges", which also implies doing it early in the turn when your edges are actually down the hill and transitioning once they try to become uphill edges, or not based on your intent.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  17. JESinstr

    JESinstr Lvl 3 1973 Skier

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    @Mike King , So today I was out working with a number of instructors and I broached the subject of lifting the edges vs tipping down. At first, most weren't sure what they do... Interesting. So I told them to focus on lifting the edges and when we got to the bottom of the slope I heard the following comments..... "WOW!!!, HOLY S--T!!

    More serious comments were: "Smoother initiation" "Earlier initiation" "More disciplined turn"

    Great tip!
     
  18. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    Thanks, but I can’t take credit for it — it came from Squatty Schuller via other trainers at Snowmass!
     
  19. Ken_R

    Ken_R Living the Dream Skier

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    Tried this on the hill the other day and its an awesome drill! thx
     
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  20. dbostedo

    dbostedo Asst. Gathermeister--Big Sky Team Gathermeister

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    Could someone explain what you're trying to accomplish with the pole drags in this case? I've done different pole drag drills with instructors for a couple of reasons... not sure what this one is doing in this discussion.
     

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