MA request fo

[Skisailor]

Wouldn't another difference be the movement of the hips across the skis and their height off the ground? In your "extending through the transition" the hips would make a rainbow shape (when viewed from straight downhill), and for flex to release they would go straight across, right? So it's not just in the timing, it's the position you take/hit in the middle of transition?

(Note, I may not be understanding, and I'm just looking for clarification here.)

Hi @dbostedo.

I am talking about how we release our edges. We can get into all the complications of particular “moves” skiers use. But they ALL fall into one of 3 baskets - either both legs are extending, both legs are flexing, or one leg is flexing while the other is extending.

IMO, the direction that the hips take as they cross over the skis has a lot more to do with turn radius, degree of counter and other factors rather than the flexion/extension we use to release our edges. Does that clarify?

BTW @Smear - For what it’s worth, I also agree that your pole swing with the outside arm is causing issues. It is causing a hip rotation which results in an abstem (outside ski slides out a bit). Then, because your outside ski has moved away from you down the hill a bit, you are no longer over it. Being away from your body, It is more on edge and you have more trouble flattening that new inside ski to start the next turn - hence the need you feel to pick it up to get it to release.

You need a stronger “inside half” rather than allowing that pole swing to rotate your shoulders and hips away from the direction of travel - down the hill.

 

[markojp]

Alignment.

 

[dbostedo]

IMO, the direction that the hips take as they cross over the skis has a lot more to do with turn radius, degree of counter and other factors rather than the flexion/extension we use to release our edges. Does that clarify?

Yes, and I guess I'm oversimplifying, just to focus on one aspect at the extremes/exaggerations. When I play with releases, I suppose I really only have two in mind - at the beginning of transition, I either think about extending my short leg, or collapsing (flexing) my long leg. Consequently, I think I either feel my hips move up and over across the skis (extending my short leg), or I think of my hips moving level with the ground straight across the skis (flexing my long leg). In reality, of course, those are the extremes and infinite combinations are possible. The reason I think about the hips is that I think mentally for me that drives what my feet and legs do to accomplish transition - whether my hips actually do what I imagine, or not (I suspect they don't).

(Also, I should have said "when viewed from straight ahead of the skier" in my original question, not "when viewed from straight downhill".)

Perhaps this is dragging things too far off topic from @Smear 's MA - but thanks for the thoughts.

 

[LiquidFeet]

 

[Fishbowl]

Yeah, one thing at a time tends to work when trying to embed new habits. Here are two options I've used successfully:

--for each run, choose only one focus. The smaller, narrower the focus, the more likely you can get good results in helping to get it embedded. If you have trouble keeping that focus and get to the lift only to realize you've not been doing it (I do), try this next thing.
--choose two focuses. Do three turns with the first focus, three turns with the second focus. repeat, counting to three each time to keep yourself on point. Counting your turns will keep your mind on the focuses. You won't get to the lift realizing you've not been doing what you planned on doing (probably). You can choose three focuses and do them in sequence if you like.

You'll know you're ready to bundle the focuses together when you can do a run mindlessly, maybe with music in your head, without focus, then in the middle of it check to see if you are doing that thing you've been working on. If you aren't and you find that you have to have a conscious focus to make it happen, then you're not yet ready to bundle that focus together with others.

Bundling two focuses together comes after you've done a ton of work on each, and they seem to "want" to be bundled together. If you can "feel" the two as one, then you can rename them in your head and do that combined thing as a single focus for a while. When you can do that without thinking about it, so that when you check, yes, it's happening, it's time to bundle that with one more of your single focuses. This process is called "chunking."

What a fantastic post, outlining how we can deliberately progress through conscious control, to unconscious competence. The concept of blending two new skills into one is new for me. Pertinent for all sports and physical endevours, not just skiing.

Great insight LF.

 

[Mike King]

Hi @dbostedo.

I am talking about how we release our edges. We can get into all the complications of particular “moves” skiers use. But they ALL fall into one of 3 baskets - either both legs are extending, both legs are flexing, or one leg is flexing while the other is extending.

Not true. You can change edges without a flexion or extension move by rolling the ankles and/or tipping the lower leg.

 

[Doby Man]

What a fantastic post, outlining how we can deliberately progress through conscious control, to unconscious competence. The concept of blending two new skills into one is new for me. Pertinent for all sports and physical endevours, not just skiing.

Great insight LF.

Yes, LF knows how to cull the right stills that we can all take advantage of.

We can also identify connected movements for which we no longer wish to facilitate. For example, it looks to me that the pop that is so ingrained in the OP’s turn is, in part, triggered by the arm movement that precedes it. Motor patterns are like memory (motor patterns are, in a way, memory) in that they operate in chain linkages. To put an end to certain motor patterns, we have to look at the supporting role of preceding, simultaneous and immediately following patterns. The pop in his turn is preceded by an across the body arm swing pole plant and rotation along with a simultaneous step or stem to complete the turn. The pole plant, rotation, pop and the stem is a package of four dysfunctional motor patterns all of which support each other within the chain of movement memory. The intensity of these movements suggest heavy ingraining that may require more than a nudge here and a nudge there. Tackling one at a time may not work as well as attempts to resolve through focused/modified free skiing. Doing slip drills, among others, can work to remove/replace the package of movement rather than the individual patterns. Outcome focused corrections deal with the entire kinetic chain and movement package and not just one or two micro patterns. We must treat ski technique medicinally rather than surgically. We have to address things at the “cellular” level, the nucleus of which, if you will, would be the relationship between the CoM and the BoS.

When we coach an advanced intermediate to aggressively steer their base of support with powerful lower body movements and to pilot a well directed, steady, smooth and stable center of mass in conjunction with each other, the five fundamental movements of separation, the ones that occur between the CoM and the BoS, (flexion, extension, rotation, angulation, inclination) become passive outputs of effortless movement that are naturally, inherently, aligned with the forces of the turn. Giving direct individual instructions on all these movements can often result in them becoming active inputs requiring more muscular effort for which all the timing must now be self managed. Ski technique becomes a hinged set of complex scaffolding and clockwork timing that must be constantly maintained by the skier. For many, it is simply too much complexity to manage. When allowed to fester, this can result in a technically instigated mental clusterfuk of a development plateau. Philosophically, there is a difference between teaching someone “how” to ski and coaching someone “to” ski. One is quicker, cleaner and more streamlined than the other.

 

[Skisailor]

Not true. You can change edges without a flexion or extension move by rolling the ankles and/or tipping the lower leg.

I disagree. Even in a pure tipping action on a flat surface there is a small change in the degree of flexion of the legs. Add an inclined surface like we typically encounter in skiing and it is more pronounced.

 

[James]

an across the body arm swing pole plant and rotation

I learned to call that Vampirating. Or the Vampire arm move.

Hard to find good vampirating images, but this gets it across:

 

[LiquidFeet]

*Smear is moving his hand forward more than inward.

When a skier really rotates that arm way across the torso then slings it outward with the pole plant, I call it clearing invisible gates. I've heard instructors talk about teaching that movement (yes, intentionally) as "opening the door."

 

[geepers]

I think I need more video. The 3 videos you have seen are basicly the only videos I have seen of myself ski.

Hi Smear,
When you make more vid would it be possible to make wider radius turns, maybe even on a bit steeper pitch where you need to use line to manage speed and thus will require more completely finished turns. Still linked turns flowing one to another (i.e. not extended traverses across the hill).

Currently the vids are for quick, low arc turns. They are not classic short turns but they are not really medium turns either.

Something like the track shape demo-ed here from 5 seconds onwards.. or even wider radius. Ignore this guy's speed and style for the moment, it's the wider track shape to ski.

Reason I ask is that skiing a set task like that is likely to provide extra information for review and you'll have a little more time for each turn.

 

[markojp]

I disagree. Even in a pure tipping action on a flat surface there is a small change in the degree of flexion of the legs. Add an inclined surface like we typically encounter in skiing and it is more pronounced.

I'd love to take you out on the hill and show you how much can be done with simply and minimally 'tipping' the feet within the boot shell. You'll need to do it for your L3.

 

[dbostedo]

^^^
I'm confused... if you're ripping you're turning, right? And if you're turning one leg will be shorter than the other, even if only a minuscule amount, right? And if one leg is shorter than the other, then by definition the is flexion and extension. (I'm not talking about cause and effect and order of operations, just whether or not the legs bend.)

 

[JESinstr]

^^^
I'm confused... if you're ripping you're turning, right? And if you're turning one leg will be shorter than the other, even if only a minuscule amount, right? And if one leg is shorter than the other, then by definition the is flexion and extension. (I'm not talking about cause and effect and order of operations, just whether or not the legs bend.)

Dbostedo

IMO this is the same communications conundrum that you see in the "skis t_rn you" thread. This latest spat should not be about flexion vs tipping, it is about creating edge angles quick enough and high enough to produce an intended circular path of travel

So at transition here is what I do to create a circular path.
I start at the bottom and focus on tipping both feet. Now that act does indeed tend to make one leg bend a bit more than the other as it conforms to the surface but who gives a .......

HOWEVER with that said, at the SAME TIME that I begin tipping, I am actively beginning to flex (soften then shorten) my new inside leg in order to 1. begin the process of directing pressure to the outside ski and 2. As JF says: "Edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter" (flexing). And it is this intentional (not passive) shortening of the inside leg that allows me to control the shape of my path.

Per the "skis t_rn you thread" I am trying not to use that "T" word

 

[Skisailor]

I'd love to take you out on the hill and show you how much can be done with simply and minimally 'tipping' the feet within the boot shell. You'll need to do it for your L3.

I will??

(just kidding)

There is nothing I have written that should give you the impression I don’t already understand this. Nor is there anything about understanding tipping movements that is inconsistent with what I’ve written.

 

[markojp]

I will??

(just kidding)

There is nothing I have written that should give you the impression I don’t already understand this. Nor is there anything about understanding tipping movements that is inconsistent with what I’ve written.

I disagree. Even in a pure tipping action on a flat surface there is a small change in the degree of flexion of the legs. Add an inclined surface like we typically encounter in skiing and it is more pronounced.

Did I miss something? Or is the word 'flexion' getting in the way?

 

[Mike King]

I disagree. Even in a pure tipping action on a flat surface there is a small change in the degree of flexion of the legs. Add an inclined surface like we typically encounter in skiing and it is more pronounced.

So, how is flexion or extension going to change the edge in one footed railroad tracks?

See, the issue here is your absolute statements. As @JESinstr described above, releasing the edges is more complex than the statement you made above. And while flexion and extension in transition can be critically important, so are the actions of the feet and lower legs in tipping the skis and creating edge. Skiing isn't just about one element of the five fundamentals, it is about the blend and DIRT of it all.

Mike

 

[dbostedo]

Did I miss something? Or is the word 'flexion' getting in the way?

Maybe? I feel like several folks above are using "flexion" to mean either "intentional flexion", or "flexion as a cause, not an effect"... where others (myself included) are just using it to mean that the leg bends for any reason. (I.e. "you can't turn without flexion" doesn't mean, to me, that flexion is necessarily the cause of the turn, just that it has to happen - one of your legs bends.)

The one footed question is very interesting. Can you make one footed transitions with your leg locked in one positions and no flexing or extending? Would that mean you'd have to throw your upper body around? I have no idea.

 

[Skisailor]

I agree with dbostedo’s post above, and I do mean flexion or extension as either a cause or an effect - just that the leg joints bend or extend for any reason - as the primary skier’s intention or the result of other actions.

I also agree that an example like railroad tracks - whether one-footed or two-footed - are at one end of the spectrum where minimal leg flexion/extension is exhibited. But it is still there and I stand by my “3 baskets” description for accomplishing the edge change.

Mike - I think maybe you thought that I was saying flexion and extension alone accomplish the edge change. But that is not what I said. Just that flexion and/or extension occur (either actively or passively) when we go from one set of edges to the other. And it can only happen in one of 3 ways - both extend, both flex, one extends while the other flexes.

As an aside, Mike, when practicing your one footed skiing, try doing it 3 ways: with pure tipping (minimal flexion/extension), with flexion and tipping, and then with extension and tipping. And see if from an ease and efficiency standpoint one seems easier than the other.
It’s a really fun exercise.

 

[James]

And it can only happen in one of 3 ways - both extend, both flex, one extends while the other flexes.

Or...both stay pretty much the same. Think parallelogram. The body goes over the skis. Pretty simple.

Sure, the lengths probably change after, but in terms of actions is doesn't fit in to your 3 ways.

The op pushes off at the end of his turn and pops. The arm swing is part of it.