MA request fo

[LiquidFeet]

@Smear,
It's hard to explain why giving the new inside ski (and foot and ankle and leg) control of a turn is so important.

Think of it this way. It looks like you enjoy high edge angles and the way an edged turn feels. You like having your hip low to snow.

You can get lower! If you never go UP between turns, and start your new turn already low, you're half way to having your hip on the snow by the fall line. Consider this an enticement to shorten the new inside leg and drop low without lengthening the new outside leg at all between turns. I guarantee your hip will drop earlier, giving it more potential to get all the way down next to the snow by the fall line.

It takes time to figure out how to do that in a balanced way, but when you know this kind of skiing is there waiting for you to grab it, you'll be able to stop that new outside leg from doing what it habitually does. Habits take work to break. You already own the movement pattern that so many in this thread are suggesting you do; it can clearly be seen in the fourth frame above. Change its timing so it happens first, use it to start the turn, delete the extension move altogether, and you'll be on your way.

 

[gwasson]

View attachment 59064

@Smear,
It's hard to explain why giving the new inside ski (and foot and ankle and leg) control of a turn is so important.

Think of it this way. It looks like you like high edges and the way an edged turn feels. You like having your hip low to snow.

You can get lower! If you never go UP between turns, and start your new turn already low, you're half way to having your hip on the snow by the fall line. Consider this an enticement to shorten the new inside leg and drop low without lengthening the new outside leg at all between turns. I guarantee your hip will drop earlier, giving it more potential to get all the way down by the fall line.

It takes time to figure out how to do that in a balanced way, but if you know it's there waiting for you maybe you'll be able to stop that new outside leg from doing what it habitually does. Habits take work to break. You already own the movement pattern that so many in this thread are suggesting you do. You clearly do it in the fourth frame above. Change its timing so it happens first, let it lead, delete the extension move, and you'll be on your way.

This is something I am working on as well, and found these Youtube videos to be very helpful in staying low and not "popping" between turns (a bad habit of mine as well).

 

[geepers]

View attachment 59064

LiquidFeet, you really do the best MAs with those images and commentary.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I find the stills very informative.
Wish I could see all that stuff with a quick view of the video in motion, but nope.

 

[Michael Ando]

LiquidFeet, you really do the best MAs with those images and commentary.

Unfortunately I am pretty much retired from skiing but as a sports teaching nerd still like to read this forum every so often.
Agreed 110% with geepers post.
Cheers Mike

 

[geepers]

I find the stills very informative.
Wish I could see all that stuff with a quick view of the video in motion, but nope.

And on the hill, no option to hit the slo-mo replay button.... Here comes the next student...

 

[LiquidFeet]

In person things can sometimes be pretty clear (but not always).
3-D with surround-sound and a personal connection and real time watching from all angles offers a lot of information.
Video lacks that. Stills from video are great. But they only go so far.

 

[geepers]

Think I need more practice. Find it a challenge when the quality of the skiing is pretty good - like in mock lessons for certification.

 

[JESinstr]

Smear, @LiquidFeet has done you a great service in providing the set of stills above.

The "big picture" I get out of those stills is a pair of dysfunctional skis.

Fundamental 1: Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis .

If you look at all the varied spacings and "configurations" of your feet in the stills, vs what you see in the "important move" videos you can understand how you are creating a very poor environment in which to effectively implement this fundamental.

You need to get back to basics and instill the discipline that allows the skis perform their individual roles within the confines of a parallel symmetry.
Build this symmetry with J turns and Falling leaf drills.

What JF is doing in the first 2 plus minutes of the below video is a good start.

 

[razie]

@Skisailor, the issue here is that @Smear changes edges by pushing his upper body across the skis. He moves his head first, then the shoulder, and finally accelerates the upper body movement across the skis
Mike

@Skisailor - look again. You mis-interpret what a flexed transition is - it's not just a timing change - it's very different movements. Here, he is just pushing the body over the skis, he is not flexing the outside leg really anywhere in the turn - just backing off the pressure at the end of the turn. Also, the head & inside shoulder is clearly the first to move into the new turn, then the hips. See below, the left leg simply extends pushing the shoulders over the skis:

Hey @Smear you didn't tell us if you tried any of the drills and things recommended above... did you get a change to work on those? You should really do something about that alignment!!

 

[HeluvaSkier]

Until the commitment is made to fix the alignment, there is no point in talking about the skiing.

 

[Skisailor]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree @razie. I don’t think I am misinterpreting at all. Perhaps our way of talking about things is just different. That’s what I suspect. For example, you say “he is not flexing the outside leg really anywhere in the turn.” I totally disagree. I see some degree of flexion in the outside leg in the very first photo you posted!

How do I judge that? Because that leg is clearly flexed more at that point in the turn than it is at transition where he is “tall” (maximum extension). The 8 second point in the video shows this very well.

He is making the most commonly used turn initiation type that we see amongst recreational skiers - extending through the transition to start the new turn, rather than flexing his new inside leg and extending his old outside leg (long leg short leg), or just flexing both legs (flexion turn, crossing under or whatever you want to call it). All of these require that we flex and extend our legs. The difference is when during the turn we do it.

 

[razie]

@Skisailor - please notice in the first photo where the boot is. Is it under the body or really far back? If it were under the body, that could qualify for me as a flexing attempt.

The fact that the leg is slightly bent is just so that he doesn't fall over or lean the entire body forward and break the skis or the leg, having already "jammed" the boot and completely exhausted range of motion. It has nothing to do with an attempt at a flexing release, that you can just change the timing of.

That's not what I'd call "flexing", that's just a subconscious and geometrical reaction to jamming the boot, where his foot is still engaged and cannot be lightened - that's why I said you misinterpret what flexing is...

This is flexing:

It's completely different biomechanics. The red jacket skier cannot release that right foot anymore, having jammed the boot. He has to hop off of it or push himself over with the other leg... while the red pants above simply relaxes and tips the outside leg, which flexes and the transition happens.

So yes, that knee is slightly flexed, but with a completely different biomechanics and situation from the one related to the "flexing release". The words sound close, but these are very different concepts, different biomechanics etc.

In other words: if the movement was appropriate, we could just vary the DIRT to fix something, but in this case, the movement is nowhere close to what you say it was. We can vary DIRT as much as we want and we won't get a good result. We need to change the movement itself.

cheers

p.s. Looking at flexing and extending the legs, in relation to a flexed release (or something else): we flex and extend the legs at different times for different purposes. When we see a flexed leg, we need to understand why, how and when, is it still flexing or is it just maintaining a position and which side of the kinetic chain is closed vs open. It makes a huge difference...

 

[Smear]

Smear you didn't tell us if you tried any of the drills and things recommended above... did you get a change to work on those?

Tried lifting and tipping the inside ski, one ski carving and javelin turns. Also tried white pass turns, but still very inconsistent in putting down the ski at the right time. So my weighted release is not ready for final release yet ;-) Local resort will hopefully open on Friday so more opportunities soon to practice on easy terrain

New outside arm comes forward for pole plant

inside ski is flat and has a divergent tip

Jepp, that is still present. If there was a focus in MA3 it was to lighten and tip the inside ski, and somewhat relax/delay the tipping of outside ski. But not much of that showing....

The divergence is still there even when the ski is lifted like at the top of the turns when the ski is light. Actually seems to happen even more when the ski is not grounded. I think I end up pointing the inside knee in a bit (external rotation of femur ) but not tipping the ankle toward the little to edge enough (rotating the subtalar joint internally). End result is divergence. And then when the inside ski get weighted later in the turn, the divergence creates the widening of the stance, loss of outside ski and inside ski slipping too far forward. I think the sensation I should be chasing is like when doing javelin turns with the inside knee pointed a bit inward but rotation in the ankle is responsible for pointing the ski across. Sort of a tension of opposing rotations. Did that make sense?

You should really do something about that alignment!!

In MA3 the both knees are 1 degree further out compared to MA1 and MA2. Have tried additional 1 degree out previously but that felt "overedged" to me. Will continue to work on alignment and try various assessment tasks. Don't trust my feelings, so will need to complement with video when doing that.

Until the commitment is made to fix the alignment, there is no point in talking about the skiing.

I hear you load and clear

 

[dbostedo]

The difference is when during the turn we do it.

Wouldn't another difference be the movement of the hips across the skis and their height off the ground? In your "extending through the transition" the hips would make a rainbow shape (when viewed from straight downhill), and for flex to release they would go straight across, right? So it's not just in the timing, it's the position you take/hit in the middle of transition?

(Note, I may not be understanding, and I'm just looking for clarification here.)

 

[LiquidFeet]

^yes.

 

[Smear]

Missed a bit.

New outside arm comes forward for pole plant

Thanks for reminding me. That outside hand and shoulder thing was the main feedback teleskiing 15 years ago so it's about time that I fix that. Don't think it's the main cause of the other problems but it's certainly not helping my ability to the counter through the end of the turn...

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Smear, it's clear you have a good conceptual understanding of this stuff. Have you identified which obstacles might slow your progress?

--too many options to choose from? --contradictory advice? --body on auto-pilot committed to old habits?
--time commitment issues? --friend sabotaging your efforts to work on form? --other stuff?

 

[Smear]

Have you identified which obstacles might slow your progress?

--too many options to choose from? --contradictory advice? --body on auto-pilot committed to old habits?
--time commitment issues? --friend sabotaging your efforts to work on form? --other stuff?

Hey, you are turning into a life coach.

--time commitment issues?
Have 2 small kids and ongoing (or neverending...) full renovation of a house. Both in full-time jobs. I have a decent amount of ski days, but they are rarely more than 1.5 hours and a lot of that time is spent in lift lines. At times very crowded resort in the captial. Usually ski on weekdays after putting the kids to bed or on weekend mornings before we go out and do other stuff. Find it hard to practice on my own skiing when skiing with the kids, but this will improve over time. A lot easier when skiing with the oldest (7) than with the youngest (5). Looking forward to the day when they start going to race camps/weekends, and I can go skiing while they are beeing coached

--body on auto-pilot committed to old habits?
Probably. I think I'm able to succsessfully practice one thing at a time. Like inside ski tipping, staying low in the transition, staying in balance over the outside ski and keep facing down the hill through the end of the turn/ending the turn by untipping the outside ski. But then when putting it all together, things fall apart. I think i need more time ingraining the movements one-by-one which comes back to the first point and that is hard to do something about. What I can do is be more focused when I practice each item and when i try to put things back together. Make every turn count.

--friend sabotaging your efforts to work on form?
Well. Skiing gates once a week is very likely not the best use of time when it comes to improving form. But It's fun, and it involves doing something fun toghether with other adults. Not a lot of that after the kids arrived in my life, so the gates are here to stay. And I get good coaching from very competent people who see me ski regularly. Problem is being able to implement their advice, and work on it enough to be able to take it back into the gates in an improved form.

--other stuff
I think I need more video. The 3 videos you have seen are basicly the only videos I have seen of myself ski. For instance I had no idea that UP-movement was that abrupt and that the divergence and A-frame was that prominent. Perhaps I can teach the kid how to use the video camera ;-) In a few years....

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hey, you are turning into a life coach.
....I think I'm able to successfully practice one thing at a time. Like inside ski tipping, staying low in the transition, staying in balance over the outside ski and keep facing down the hill through the end of the turn/ending the turn by untipping the outside ski. But then when putting it all together, things fall apart. I think i need more time ingraining the movements one-by-one which comes back to the first point and that is hard to do something about. What I can do is be more focused when I practice each item and when i try to put things back together. Make every turn count.

Yeah, one thing at a time tends to work when trying to embed new habits. Here are two options I've used successfully:

--for each run, choose only one focus. The smaller, narrower the focus, the more likely you can get good results in helping to get it embedded. If you have trouble keeping that focus and get to the lift only to realize you've not been doing it (I do), try this next thing.

--choose two focuses. Do three turns with the first focus, three turns with the second focus. Repeat, counting to three each time to keep yourself on point. Counting your turns will keep your mind on the focuses. You won't get to the lift realizing you've not been doing what you planned on doing (probably). You can choose three focuses and do them in sequence if you like.

You'll know you're ready to bundle the focuses together when you can do a run mindlessly, maybe with music in your head, without focus, then in the middle of it check to see if you are doing that thing you've been working on. If you aren't and you find that you have to have a conscious focus to make it happen, then you're not yet ready to bundle that focus together with others.

Bundling two focuses together comes after you've done a ton of work on each, and they seem to "want" to be bundled together. If you can "feel" the two as one, then you can rename them in your head and do that combined thing as a single focus for a while. When you can do that without thinking about it, so that when you check, yes, it's happening, it's time to bundle that with one more of your single focuses. This process is called "chunking."